Amy Schumer And Judd Apatow Talk Storytelling, Commitment And Spooning

Transcript

TERRY GROSS, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. My guests are Amy Schumer, who wrote and stars in the new movie comedy, "Trainwreck," and Judd Apatow, who directed and produced the film. Schumer has become a feminist comedy icon for her hilarious take on body image, sex, gender, relationships and pop culture. Today, she was nominated for an Emmy for best lead actress in a comedy series for her performance in her Comedy Central series, "Inside Amy Schumer." Judd Apatow directed and wrote or co-wrote the films, "The 40-Year-Old Virgin," "Knocked Up," "Funny People" and "This is 40."

In "Trainwreck," Schumer plays a single woman named Amy who doesn't want to commit to a relationship, unlike her sister, who's married and has a child, with another on the way. Amy is a writer at a men's magazine, where she's assigned to write a profile of a sports medicine doctor, in spite of the fact that she's uninterested in and knows nothing about sports. She hits it off with the doctor, who's played by "Saturday Night Live" alum, Bill Hader. They start seeing each other, but that doesn't change her reluctance to commit. That reluctance is partially explained by a flashback scene at the beginning of the film, when she's a young child and her parents are divorcing. Her father, played by Colin Quinn, is trying to explain to Amy and her sister why he can't be faithful to their mother. The children are carrying their dolls.

(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "TRAINWRECK")

COLIN QUINN: (As Gordon) I don't know what your mother told you, but let me explain it from my side, in terms you can understand. You got your doll, right? You got your doll there.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTRESS #1: (As character) Yes.

QUINN: (As Gordon) You love your doll?

UNIDENTIFIED ACTRESS #1: (As character) Yes.

QUINN: (As Gordon) Yes. But what if I told you that was the only doll you're allowed to play with the rest of your life? How would you feel?

UNIDENTIFIED ACTRESS #1: (As character) Sad.

QUINN: (As Gordon) You'd feel sad, of course. There's other dolls you like, and they're making new dolls every year. You want a stewardess doll?

UNIDENTIFIED ACTRESS #1: (As character) Yeah.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTRESS #2: (As character) Yeah.

QUINN: (As Gordon) What about a slightly overweight cocktail waitress doll?

UNIDENTIFIED ACTRESS #1: (As character) Yeah.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTRESS #2: (As character) Yeah.

QUINN: (As Gordon) What about a doll who happens to be best friends with your main doll?

UNIDENTIFIED ACTRESS #1: (As character) Yeah.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTRESS #2: (As character) Yeah.

QUINN: (As Gordon) It could happen, right?

UNIDENTIFIED ACTRESS #1: (As character) Yeah.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTRESS #2: (As character) Yeah.

QUINN: (As Gordon) What about a doll you only play with one day and never see again?

UNIDENTIFIED ACTRESS #1: (As character) Yeah.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTRESS #2: (As character) Yeah.

QUINN: (As Gordon) So that's why me and mom are getting divorced.

(LAUGHTER)

GROSS: Amy Schumer and Judd Apatow, welcome to FRESH AIR. I love that explanation about why monogamy isn't realistic (laughter).

AMY SCHUMER: Thank you.

GROSS: And, you know, that scene happens toward the very beginning of the movie. And I knew as soon as I saw that scene that I was going to love this film. So, Amy, how did you come up with this ridiculous way of explaining why monogamy isn't realistic?

SCHUMER: Well, I would say that my parents never broke it down for us orally, but it was learned through their behavior, so it was never really explained. And my dad was very - he's so funny and sarcastic, but he would treat us a little bit too much like adults. Like, he taught my sister and I how to play poker, like, very seriously, when we were just, like, toddlers. And he was like, if this were a real game, somebody would've killed you. You know...

GROSS: (Laughter).

SCHUMER: ...And we're just little girls. So that way of kind of talking to us and that kind of gruffness which Colin brought to it, that's very much my dad.

GROSS: So this scene helps explain why your character is afraid of intimacy, because she's been brought up with this idea that monogamy isn't realistic. So did you come of age thinking that, too - that, like, relationships don't last, so why bother?

SCHUMER: Well, my parents were both married three times, and they got divorced when I was, I think, like, 12 years old, so - and just seeing the way that they kind of behaved and then my own observations from, like, the normal, little teenage heartbreaks, and I think also the stories I liked. It was, like, all "Les Mis." It was all these unrequited love stories (laughter). I was just pretty sure that I was just going to have my heart torn out, so I've always had this, like, major fear of having my heart very broken because of unrequited love. And that's actually never happened - or not so far - but I live in constant fear of that. And I think that was reflected sort of in my behavior in not wanting to get too close to anyone. Yeah, I have mostly been in long-term relationships, but I think I've never really given myself over to them for the fear of being hurt.

GROSS: Judd Apatow, you suggested that Amy Schumer write a screenplay after hearing her on Howard Stern and hearing her be so funny on his show. What did you suggest? Like, when you approached her, what did you pitch to her?

JUDD APATOW: Well, actually, first I called Ronnie the Limo Driver.

(LAUGHTER)

APATOW: And he said - he refused to write a script. And then I asked...

SCHUMER: You got to stay on him about that.

APATOW: I asked Gary. I asked everybody.

SCHUMER: (Laughter).

APATOW: Well, she was telling stories about her relationships and also stories about her dad, who has multiple sclerosis, and what it's like to have that relationship with someone who's going through a chronic illness. And the stories were very dark and sad but also showed a lot of love for her dad, and they were really funny and warm at the same time. And I remember sitting in the car thinking, this is a hilarious stand-up comedian, and I don't think she understands what a great storyteller she is, so I thought I would tell her.

GROSS: So, Amy, once Judd Apatow asked you to write a screenplay, you did write one. And it's basically your version - your take on a romcom. It's part parody of that and part that. So I'm interested in hearing some of the things that annoy you about romcoms and some of the things you really like about it that you wanted to work with.

SCHUMER: I would say what - the things that, I think, annoy everybody about romcoms. You're just, like - we just know all the points that the story has to hit. Like, OK, there's going to be a conflict, and then they're going to be OK. And, you know, it's just, like, kind of - it feels, like, a little exhausting. So I think - like, I think the format - there's a reason that that's a format. You don't want it to be, like, there's no problem, and you just kind of watch these people fall in love and then they die.

(LAUGHTER)

SCHUMER: There's got to be something. But, you know, sometimes when it's just - just any time it's not earned and, like - or when they don't actually have chemistry, and you're just like, come on.

GROSS: Let's hear another scene from the film. And your character, Amy, has a rule in the movie - don't stay overnight with a man unless it's, like, your boyfriend and you're already in a long relationship. But, so - but sometimes she drinks so much, she wakes up in a man's bedroom and has no idea where she is. So in this scene, she's just violated her rule, and she stayed overnight with Aaron, the sports medicine doctor played by Bill Hader, who she's just started to see. And the next morning at the office, she describes the night to her friend and colleague, Nikki, played by Vanessa Bayer. And in the middle of this scene, we're going to hear Aaron, the sports medicine doctor played by Bill Hader - we're going to call - hear him call her. And his best friend, Lebron James, is sitting next to him, trying to listen in on the conversation. So Amy speaks first.

(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "TRAINWRECK")

SCHUMER: (As Amy) I slept at the doctor's place last night.

VANESSA BAYER: (As Nikki) Oh my God, because you were, like, blackout drunk?

SCHUMER: (As Amy) No, that's the thing. I was dead sober. I had like two drinks, three max, four now that I'm tallying, but it was, like - I was sober.

BAYER: (As Nikki) OK, so you barely drank...

SCHUMER: (As Amy) Barely.

BAYER: (As Nikki) ...Because you're on antibiotics or something?

(SOUNDBITE OF PHONE RINGING)

SCHUMER: (As Amy) Oh, my god. He's calling.

BAYER: (As Nikki) Why would he call? You guys just had sex.

SCHUMER: (As Amy) It's probably a mistake. It's a mistake.

BAYER: (As Nikki) Yeah, he's butt-dialing you.

SCHUMER: (As Amy) Hello?

BILL HADER: (As Aaron) Oh, hey there, it's Aaron.

SCHUMER: (As Amy) Oh, this is Amy. I think you butt-dialed me.

HADER: (As Aaron) No, no, I dialed you with my fingers.

LEBRON JAMES: (As himself) What's she saying? What's she saying?

HADER: (As Aaron) Shh.

SCHUMER: (As Amy) He called me on purpose.

BAYER: (As Nikki) Hang up. He's obviously, like, sick or something.

SCHUMER: (As Amy) Yeah, what's up?

HADER: (As Aaron) I was just calling to say I had a really good time last night, and I was wondering if you wanted to hang out again.

SCHUMER: (As Amy) Will you say that again, please?

HADER: (As Aaron) I was wondering if I could see you again.

BAYER: (As Nikki) You know what? I'm going to call the police.

GROSS: I love that (laughter) - that a man wanting to see you again is, like, a sign of psychotic behavior.

APATOW: (Laughter).

SCHUMER: Yeah, like, this is obviously a pyramid scheme.

(LAUGHTER)

GROSS: And, Amy, you're great at getting what's funny, awkward and sometimes just bad about new sexual experiences and the funny things about sleeping together with someone for the first time. Like, your character hates to spoon and says - I think this is so great - she says let's try to sleep in a realistic position.

(LAUGHTER)

SCHUMER: Yeah.

GROSS: So did you sit down and just try to think, what are the most embarrassing or awkward or just, like, physically uncomfortable things about spending the night with someone for the first time?

SCHUMER: Yeah, well, a lot of this version of myself is based on me in college - I would say my sophomore year, specifically, where I did have a bunch of partners and - you know, who I knew I wasn't going to date.

APATOW: Songwriting partners?

GROSS: (Laughter).

SCHUMER: Yes, songwriting partners, Judd. And - we try to keep Judd very sheltered. We told him that his daughters are here because of storks bringing them.

APATOW: (Laughter).

SCHUMER: But - so there were these - there were these experiences. And, yeah, like, you know, sometimes you'd be like, OK, I'm going to spend the night here. And then there's some guy and he's, like, breathing on you, and you're just like (sigh), like - and you just, yeah, you just resent him. So I was like, what if this were different - if I were to actually just say to him, like, I'm not going to try to just be the thing that you want and try to be this perfect person for you? I'm like, if I'm going to stay here, like, I'm going to put a pillow between us, and don't breathe on me - just that she's communicating with someone for the first time. Like, I'm going to just say what I actually want instead of trying to be some fantasy for you.

But for me, personally, yeah, there's this, like, misconception, like, that women want to be held all night, and some do. And I'm sure - and some guys like that. But I - and I love spooning. I love - you know, I'm like a latchkey dog. Like, I love to be - I guess they all are - but I love to be held in my life. I'm very affectionate, but when I go to sleep, I'm like, please don't come anywhere near me, person.

(LAUGHTER)

GROSS: Now, in the early part of the movie, John Cena plays your boyfriend, and he's in the film. He's a CrossFit instructor. In real life, John Cena is a WWE wrestler and...

APATOW: World champion.

SCHUMER: World champ.

GROSS: Yeah, yeah.

(LAUGHTER)

GROSS: And I thought, like, why did Amy Schumer hire a professional wrestler for this role? It seems kind of improbable that somebody with that body and, you know - but then I found out...

SCHUMER: Wait, what seems improbable?

GROSS: Well, those bodies don't exist in the real world, you know, like...

SCHUMER: Oh, right.

APATOW: (Laughter).

GROSS: And I figured, like, what are the odds of your character would know, like, a wrestler or, like, somebody who has a body like that, because you have to, like, work so hard to get that kind of - I don't even know what the word is, but you know.

SCHUMER: Physique?

GROSS: Physique, yeah. Then I read (laughter) that your boyfriend used to be Dolph Ziggler, who's a wrestling champion and who's actually out of commission at the moment because an opponent injured his trachea with a crutch on his throat (laughter).

SCHUMER: It's so funny that...

APATOW: I didn't mean to do that, by the way.

GROSS: (Laughter).

SCHUMER: Well, Judd, you do need to know - understand your strength. Hearing you, Terry, talk about Dolph Ziggler on NPR is the funniest thing that I've ever experienced.

APATOW: It's the first time his name has been mentioned on FRESH AIR.

GROSS: But it made - it did make me wonder. Your comedy is about being self-conscious about your body sometimes and how women are basically almost forced to be self-conscious about their bodies because of all of these standards that are projected onto them that they should achieve physically. But anyway, so to have a physical relationship with somebody who has such a kind of constructed body - just I'm wondering what that was like and what it made you feel about your own body, not that that's too personal, right, to talk about?

APATOW: Well for me, personally, I don't like having a sixpack. Was she asking me?

SCHUMER: No, Judd, actually...

APATOW: But this is a funny one in terms of, like, the process of how this is written, which is Amy talked about, you know - we knew she dated a wrestler. And so I was saying, you know, maybe there's something funny about getting tossed around in a scene. And then John came in, and in rehearsals it became clear that this idea that Amy had about John being bad at talking dirty was the funniest thing we had ever seen. He just did it so funny. So the joke really, ultimately, wasn't about his body as much as an enormous man who isn't verbal. And so it just, like, took another path in the development of her script for a long time. Then he - you know, he looks good, and, you know, as a director, you know, I need eye-candy.

SCHUMER: Yes, you do.

GROSS: (Laughter).

APATOW: That's an important part for me.

SCHUMER: Which is also where Dave Attell came into the mix.

APATOW: Exactly.

GROSS: So, so, so...

APATOW: But mainly the joke was a verbal joke - it was making us laugh. And, you know, he is so funny. I think it's 'cause those guys improvise so much. And Amy wrote so many hilarious lines we were feeding him. But then, when you would just let him go and just say, hey, John, talk in sports metaphors - dirty. And during sex, he's like, there's no I in team.

SCHUMER: (Laughter).

APATOW: I mean, he is so hilarious, and he just happened to have a body that looked good, but...

SCHUMER: We just had the added fun visual.

GROSS: I get that, but my question still stands. Like, dealing with somebody who's job...

SCHUMER: Yeah, no, I'm happy to answer it.

GROSS: ...It's like their life is all about building their body. That's what - that - everything revolves around that.

SCHUMER: Right. Truth - truly, it did not make me self-conscious. I think, as a woman, I just kind of feel like wherever my weight is, if it's up or down, when I take off my clothes there is just a certain sense of, you're welcome.

(LAUGHTER)

SCHUMER: You know? And it's - I feel like I look like a real person, and I'm soft and squishy, but I'm a woman. And I feel sexy, and so - and I've got to tell you, Terry, when you're naked with somebody who's, like, jacked like that, you still feel hot. And for me - and the way it feels to touch a person like that - for me, I wasn't - it wasn't as exciting as I kind of thought it would be. It really does feel different (laughter).

APATOW: It's like having a Mack truck on you.

SCHUMER: Yeah, like, it's like a refrigerator fell on you. I like - I like someone who's a little squishier.

GROSS: My guests are Amy Schumer, who wrote and stars in the new film comedy, "Trainwreck," and Judd Apatow, who produced and directed the film. We'll talk more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

GROSS: If you're just joining us, my guests are Amy Schumer who wrote and stars in the new movie comedy "Trainwreck" and Judd Apatow who directed and produced it.

Amy, your character's father has MS and, during the movie, moves into assisted living. And one of the things your character and her sister has to do is kind of pack up his stuff and decide what to keep and what to save. And even though the father has MS, it's not like he's just treated as this, you know, person who is now weak and vulnerable and everybody's just totally sympathetic to because he's a really - he's the kind of guy who speaks his mind whether he's right or wrong.

SCHUMER: Yeah.

GROSS: And he tells you what he thinks you should be doing whether he's right or wrong or whether it's any of his business. Your father is still alive, and I was wondering if you were concerned that he'd see the movie and be offended and if you can let that interfere with your writing.

SCHUMER: If I thought he would be offended by anything, that would definitely interfere with my writing. There's a lot I didn't put in the movie about both my parents, but my dad has seen all of his scenes in the movie, and he loves it. And he's, like - you know, it's the cloth that I'm cut from. He's also an over-sharer and someone who's very open about being a human being and the mistakes he's made. And he knows it's an accurate portrayal, and he's thrilled, honestly. But, yeah, I'm not like, the art comes first. If I thought anybody that - would be hurt by something, I would never - I would never write about it.

GROSS: Did you have to make the decisions that your character makes when he moves into assisted living, of what to save and what to discard from his home to have to make those decisions without him?

SCHUMER: No. No, the way that he went into assisted living was that he was - he remarried, and he moved in with this woman who - he was living with her New Orleans. And then she out of nowhere kind of kicked him out and kind of left him on the side of the road in his wheelchair. And we had to just go get him and move him into assisted living, so she kept all of his stuff.

GROSS: Wow, really?

SCHUMER: Yep.

GROSS: Well, that sounds...

APATOW: And her name...

GROSS: How old were you when that happened? Was that - was this something recent?

SCHUMER: I think this might have been four or five years ago.

GROSS: Oh, so that's pretty recent.

SCHUMER: More - maybe more. My sister's saying more - maybe six - six years ago. Yeah, it was horrible. I got the call, and I had to go do - I had to go on stage right after. And, yeah - and it was traumatizing.

GROSS: You both have parents who divorced when you were young, and those divorces were turning points in your lives. And your lives as adults take have taken opposite directions in the sense that, Judd, you married pretty young. You have two children who are in their teens now. And, Amy, you're...

SCHUMER: A barren wasteland who's going to die alone.

(LAUGHTER)

APATOW: Terry, how could you say that?

SCHUMER: Terry.

(LAUGHTER)

GROSS: You've chosen to, until this point in your life, remain single...

SCHUMER: Yes.

GROSS: ...And to not have children. And I'm wondering if you think you've both reacted, in some ways, differently to watching divorce in your family, in terms of what you wanted for yourself.

SCHUMER: Yeah, we've gone the dead-opposite way from each other. I think, for me, I honestly haven't met anyone yet that I want to be with forever, that I would want to commit to and start a family with. I love that idea, and I'd be into that. I don't know how realistic I think monogamy is for some people. I sort of have some, like, evolving views of that. But I love the idea of making a commitment to someone and having a family. But, yeah, I've just - I've never met - there's no one that got away. I never ran from something that would have been good. Yeah, so that's kind of my reasoning.

And, you know, my reason for not marrying young like some of my friends and starting a family is because I didn't want to do it. I never fantasized about being married. I never played wedding or bride when I was a little kid, and my interests were in other places. Yeah, and I just didn't meet that - I wasn't lucky enough to meet that person.

GROSS: And, Judd, I'm wondering if, like, seeing divorce in your family made you want to make sure you created your own family that was, you know, like, better and different, which is - a lot of people assume they'll be able to do that.

APATOW: Well, I do think that that is a part of it because as a kid you just think - oh, why didn't you guys try harder, why didn't you figure it out - because you only see it through your eyes - of how it affects you. And I think that, you know, it - you know, it made me think, oh, you know, there's work that goes into with. But there are some couples, like my parents, that should not have been together. So as you get older, you realize, well, there was no way that was going to work anyway. But I definitely try to take lessons, you know, from what they did wrong and what they did right. They were always very supportive of me and very loving and always believed that I could succeed, but they were also very negative. But I got very lucky. I met an amazing person young, and I have two amazing kids, so I'm not in the situation my parents were in, you know? I'm in, you know, a very happy situation that still requires work, but it wasn't what my parents were dealing with.

GROSS: My guests are Amy Schumer who wrote and stars in the new film comedy "Trainwreck" and Judd Apatow who directed it. We'll talk more about "Trainwreck" and talk with Schumer about her Comedy Central series, "Inside Any Schumer," after we take a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross back with Amy Schumer, who wrote and stars in the new movie comedy, "Trainwreck," and Judd Apatow, who directed it. Today Schumer was nominated for an Emmy for best lead actress in a comedy series for her performance in her Comedy Central series, "Inside Amy Schumer." The show did well in the variety series category with nominations for outstanding sketch series and outstanding writing. The episode "12 Angry Men Inside Amy Schumer" is nominated for outstanding directing for a variety series. We'll talk about inside Amy Schumer after we talk more about the new movie, "Trainwreck."

Since you wrote the movie, Amy, and Judd, you directed it, Amy, were there times where you felt like, no, I wrote that, this is my conception of it, you're wrong in your conception?

SCHUMER: Very rarely. Like, I think anytime we had any moments of - Judd was just so patient with me and so cool about collaborating and talking it out. And there were - there were just only a couple moments I can think of where there was any divide 'cause usually we're on the same page. But it was like, I felt very heard by him and I really learned to trust him, especially with the way the movie came out. I just - it's my story and I was really - I'm so used to having all the control in my standup and my TV show. It was really hard to learn to trust someone like this. And I'm so glad that I did and that he was patient - patient with me.

APATOW: And a lot of ways, it felt very similar to "Freaks And Geeks" 'cause Paul Feig, you know, brought me the pilot of "Freaks And Geeks," which he wrote on spec. And then Jake Kasdan was the director of the pilot. And we all sat around and talked about how we can make it better. But it was so important to Paul, it just was everything to him. And so you're trying to listen to somebody and get a sense of their vision, but also to tell them what you've learned along the way about how things are really going to play up on screen and what - I don't know, just what story lessons or lessons about what goes too far or the balance between comedy and drama. So it's a constant debate, but that's why I like to get a lot of options and to screen a ton because ultimately, the audience will tell you if they're understanding it, if they're moved, if they're laughing. And then you don't need to argue about anything because you're also asking the audience how they're connecting to it.

SCHUMER: I don't think we ever argued, now that we're talking about it.

APATOW: No.

SCHUMER: Aw.

APATOW: I always knew the edit would be hard because Amy is such an incredible editor, and she's very anal about every frame of her TV show. And the whole time I thought, oh, in editing, you have to make a million choices. I mean, every second you could be on a different person's face, you could use a different joke, you can use different music. So there's so many things to debate, and overall, it really could not have gone better - 'cause for two people to see something even 98 percent the same way is a miracle. 'Cause I have had the version of it where you get into editing or the whole process and you disagree about everything.

SCHUMER: That seems like such a bummer.

APATOW: The tone, the jokes, the story. And that's - you know, that's the key to it, is - it's like writing a song with somebody.

SCHUMER: The only thing - and I will say this - is I really wanted to shoot in the penguin tank at the Central Park Zoo.

(LAUGHTER)

SCHUMER: And I drew out this whole penguin metaphor, and they went and they scouted it. They were like, there's water on it, it's not clear, it's not realistic. And...

APATOW: Penguins don't do anything in real life.

SCHUMER: They don't do anything (laughter).

APATOW: They look angry. They're not cute in real life - only animated.

SCHUMER: They just stand there, and I just - I kept being like, I really want the penguins. He's like, girl, that's not happening for you.

(LAUGHTER)

GROSS: So here's what I'd like to do. I want to spend a few minutes talking with Amy about "Inside Amy Schumer," so...

APATOW: Are you asking me to leave, Terry?

GROSS: I think for this part, I'd like to be alone in the studio with Amy. Is that OK with you?

APATOW: That is fantastic. And Terry, can I say this for the show? I would just like to make very clear that I am the first guest since probably William Buckley to be on the show twice in three weeks.

SCHUMER: Wow.

GROSS: Oh.

APATOW: Thank you. I was here for the...

GROSS: That's right, that's right.

APATOW: ...And then for "Trainwreck." And I feel like I'm an important person, and (speaking Hebrew), as my people say.

GROSS: (Laughter).

SCHUMER: Yes. Congratulations Judd. Is that why you brought balloons? I thought it was weird you brought your own balloons.

APATOW: I'm pretty excited. There's a pretty big NPR party for me afterwards.

SCHUMER: Wow.

APATOW: It's like the "Saturday Night Live" five-timers club. It's the twice in three weeksers club.

SCHUMER: It's just like, a lot of, like, pale white people holding up hands.

GROSS: Well, it's been a pleasure to have you on twice in three weeks. (Laughter). So...

APATOW: All right. See you, Terry.

GROSS: ...Congratulations on the film, Judd Apatow, thank you so much for coming.

APATOW: Thank you.

GROSS: And Amy Schumer, I'm going to ask you to stick around.

SCHUMER: I'm here.

GROSS: OK. And Amy Schumer wrote the new film, "Trainwreck." Judd Apatow directed it. Amy Schumer and I will be back after a break. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR, and if you're just joining us, my guest is Amy Schumer. She wrote and stars in the new film comedy, "Trainwreck." And of course, she created and stars in the Comedy Central sketch comedy TV series, "Inside Amy Schumer." The season recently ended, but I'm sure it's still available On Demand.

I want to talk with you about one of the most original editions that you did on your show, and this has become, like, already, like, a classic edition of "Inside Amy Schumer." It was a parody of the 1957 courtroom drama, "12 Angry Men." In this one, the jury is debating whether Amy Schumer is hot enough to have her own TV show. And I just want to play an excerpt of this. And some of the great actors in this sketch are Paul Giamatti, John Hawkes, Vincent Kartheiser and the foreman of the jury is played by Jeff Goldblum, and he speaks first as he's addressing the jury in this scene.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "INSIDE AMY SCHUMER")

JEFF GOLDBLUM: (As jury foreman) All right, gentlemen. We should probably remind ourselves at this point that today's vote decides if Amy Schumer is hot enough to be on the television. If we decide that she is not, then she's going to lose her television show or be put to immediate death or both and - you know, to be honest, I kind of - I zoned out during that part.

JOHN HAWKES: (As character) Look, I'm just saying I'm undecided, is all. I'm open to the idea, but I want to be convinced, so maybe you all who seem so certain could try to convince me.

PAUL GIAMATTI: (As character) Oh, I don't know. When I was her age, girls felt lucky if you just winked at them and let them make you a tuna melt.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1: (As character) Hear, hear.

GIAMATTI: (As character) Now they all think they deserve TV shows. You've got Mindy nightmare and the Lena girl Holocaust hour. Let me ask you a question. Where's Megan Fox's talk show?

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As character) I'd see a Kate Upton sitcom.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #3: (As character) OK, but are those girls funny?

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #4: (As character) No women are funny, but you know, if you have to hear them blab, they'd better at least be hot.

GIAMATTI: (As character) Thank you. But they're not going to get shows. You know why? There's no room left. All the slots have been taken by these manatees. Now this Amy Schumer's going to be in a movie? We've got to stop this.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #4: (As character) A movie? That's too much. She's starring in it?

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As character) I definitely don't think she's protagonist hot.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #5: (As character) But Kevin James is?

GIAMATTI: (As character) I don't need to think about [expletive] him. That's why they hire hot chicks to stand around him while he's talking.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #6: (As character) I thoroughly enjoyed "Here Comes The Boom."

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #7: (As character) Maybe she doesn't have to not be on TV at all. You know, maybe she could play somebody like a wacky neighbor or a divorced, obese women with a funny dog.

GIAMATTI: (As character) Look, the point is, the more she's out there flaunting that chipmunk face, the more her type becomes acceptable.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #8: (As character) People get confused. It could throw the standard off for shows everywhere.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #9: (As character) Yeah, they'll be thinking that quirky-looking dump trucks are OK to broadcast all over the dial. We can't let her do that.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #4: (As character) Less Melissa McCarthy and more Jenny McCarthy.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #10: (As character) Yeah, she's the funny one. Remember when she convinced us not to vaccinate our kids against easily preventable diseases? (Laughter) That was hilarious.

GROSS: (Laughter) That's a sketch from "Inside Amy Schumer."

How did you come up with the premise for this?

SCHUMER: This was the first scene that I thought of in our - over our hiatus. I thought about - my two friends were male comics. They were deliberating at a party if they thought Michelle Williams was hot - the actress. And they were both, you know, really, like, kind of debating this and they're like, I don't think I'd have sex with her. And I'm just like, looking at them, like - and they look like complete gargoyles, you know? And I'm like - and they were - and I just kept thinking about the word deliberating. And I was like, well, what's the ultimate deliberation?

And you know, there's a constant stream of articles and comments about Lena and Mindy and myself and - yeah.

GROSS: How did you come up with the insults that you wrote the actors to say about you?

SCHUMER: I wrote that one. I wrote that one by myself. You know, I got some help in the writer's room punching it up, and Jessi took a pass, but it was - that one was my baby because I just - I've known now for - this is the third year I've done this show, so I know what it's like when you're like, oh, and you guys, like, everybody write a couple of insults about me. Then you - you know, like, you're handed all these new insecurities. Like, oh, I didn't realize, like, my ears were small. So I was like, I'm going to write this thing. So I wrote it. I - it was the hardest I've ever worked, and it was really difficult to cook up. At first, I think the first draft was, like, over 40 pages - just insults about myself - funny and original insults about myself. And it was - it got - I got kind of upset. Like, you know, it just got to me. I'd been writing - I was on the road, and I'm on trains and on planes and I'm writing horrible things about myself, saying I'm built like a linebacker and I have Cabbage Patch-like features. And then - I don't know - something just - and I kind of - I wrote to Jessi Klein and Dan Powell, the other E.P.s on the show, and I was like, should I keep doing this? It's starting to feel kind of bad. And Jess was like, you want me to take it off your hands for a pass? I was like, yeah. And, you know, I spent so much time writing that and then writing which shots I wanted to re-create and preparing to direct it. I directed it along with Ryan McFaul, our director, and yeah, and the network said, sure. We kind of lied and made it sound like I was going to be a little more present in the episode than I was (laughter). And I'm so proud of it.

GROSS: It's so great.

SCHUMER: I can't believe it happened.

GROSS: Do you feel that people have actually sat around debating whether you're hot enough to have your own TV show or hot enough at least for basic cable?

SCHUMER: Absolutely, absolutely. Now, I don't think people are spending all their time thinking about me, but I do think that I've just - enough feedback has reached me where people are like, I can't decide if you're hot or not. Like, they're plagued by it. They're like, it's actually...

GROSS: Is that funny, or...

SCHUMER: You know, they kind of look on the Internet to see how - if they're attracted to me or not.

GROSS: Is that funny or infuriating?

SCHUMER: It's both. It's both. It's, you know, and people on the Internet will say that I'm the most beautiful woman they've ever seen and they'll also say I'm the most disgusting woman they've ever seen. And I'm like, well, you're both right. It's just, you know, but it doesn't - but it was so liberating to write this and I just feel very free. I feel very free from judgment and I - it was really liberating and therapeutic.

GROSS: I think that women of different generations love you, and I'll put myself in this category and it's...

SCHUMER: Thank you.

GROSS: It's in part because you're so good at taking down stereotypic - stereotypical images of women and social expectations projected onto women. And you do it with such - just with such, like, hilarious - with such hilarious satire. And it's like you're really making OK for the rest - for women to be themselves and not feel like they're second - they're second rate because they're not fulfilling these artificial expectations, you know?

SCHUMER: That's making me fully tear up - fully tearing up over here, Terry.

GROSS: Yeah.

SCHUMER: Didn't see that happening for me today. That means a lot to me. Thank you.

GROSS: Oh, so before you tear up, let me point out the downside of this.

SCHUMER: OK, good.

GROSS: Ready? That so many women - because you've become such a hero - that everybody now wants you to validate their choices - for your humor to validate their choices. So if you say anything that doesn't validate the choices I've made in my life, then I'm going to feel like you let me down because you...

SCHUMER: Like, what's an example? I kind of know what you mean, but I just want to make sure I understand.

GROSS: Oh, well, like, say you decide not to have children or say you decide to have children then I could say, like, hey, she copped out. She was making this alternate choice in not having children and now she's had a child so, you know...

SCHUMER: Right.

GROSS: ...I'm signing off. Like, you can't...

SCHUMER: Yeah.

GROSS: You can't represent, like, everybody's needs and everybody's choices that they've made in life.

SCHUMER: I remember - I love Ani DiFranco and I've been a fan of hers since I was - I don't know - 12 and was, like, going to see her do shows at Roseland at that age. And I remember, you know, she was this just, you know, beautiful singer, but also, like, these - this angsty, I'm not going to take any crap from anybody. And then she kind of softened about some things and she had a baby and she fell in love. And I remember her just expressing that, that some people felt kind of let down by that and how unfair that seemed. And I remember thinking that that was really unfair. So I just know that I'm not going to try to be that for everybody. And that I, like, truly am someone who has no judgments about the way people are. Like, if someone doesn't, like, enjoy having sex or anything and they want to live completely the opposite of me, I have no judgments about that. And so I think when other people have expressed that I just - I feel no connection. I feel no connection to it. I don't feel bad about letting someone down with that stuff.

GROSS: My guest is Amy Schumer. She wrote and stars in the new film comedy "Trainwreck" and created and stars on the Comedy Central series "Inside Amy Schumer." We'll talk more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Amy Schumer. She wrote and stars in the new film comedy "Trainwreck" and created and stars in the Comedy Central series "Inside Amy Schumer," which recently ended its third season.

There's one other sketch I want to ask you about. And this was, in part, a parody of "Friday Night Lights," but it was also just a comment on rape and date rape. I imagine you sitting there thinking where is the joke in all of this? It's like - rape is so horrible. Where - how do you make it funny so you can make, like, a hilarious commentary about how awful rape is? So can you describe how you came up with this sketch?

SCHUMER: Sure. So this one was pitched by Christine Nangle, who also wrote the scene before with - about - rape in the military. And this scene, you know, when when it was pitched it was just - it's going to be, you know, a parody of "Friday Night Lights" with a new coach that comes into town and his controversial view and technique is that he's going to say no raping. And we just - first of all, we all love the show "Friday Night Lights." And we were all so horrified by Steubenville and all of the - all of the incidents that have happened like that and the treatment of the girls and, you know, even the treatment of the Cosby accusers. And it really just felt like - like, we can do this and we can handle this in a way that's palatable for people that - 'cause, you know, to - you know, if people feel like they're being lectured, everyone tunes out. But if you can say no, we're going to make this visually interesting and there's jokes in there and we also think you can take a message away from this scene. Those are our favorite scenes to do. And, you know, I also just really wanted to play Connie Britton and drink huge glasses of white wine.

GROSS: OK, so here's an excerpt of the sketch. The new coach has just come to town - the new coach of the high school football team, played by Josh Charles. And he's giving his new rules to the members of the team and his third rule is that you can't rape - no raping. And the guys on the team are like, what? And they - so they all have questions about clarifying that rule. And here's the clip.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "INSIDE AMY SCHUMER")

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1: (As character) Can we rape at away games?

JOSH CHARLES: (As coach) Nope.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As character) What if it's Halloween and she's dressed like a sexy cat?

CHARLES: (As coach) Nope.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #3: (As character) What if she thinks it's rape, but I don't?

CHARLES: (As coach) Still no.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As character)What about, like, a sexy ladybug?

CHARLES: (As coach) Nope.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As character) A ghost? What about sexy owl?

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As character) Sexy transformer?

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #4: (As character) What if my mom is the DA and won't prosecute? Can I rape?

CHARLES: (As coach) No, you cannot.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #5: (As character) What if she's drunk and has a slight reputation and no one is going to believe her?

CHARLES: (As coach) That ain't allowed.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #4: (As character) OK. The girl said yes to me the other day, but it was about something else.

CHARLES: (As coach) No.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #6: (As character) What if the girl said yes but then she changes her mind out of nowhere like a crazy person?

CHARLES: (As coach) You've got to stop.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #5: (As character) No, you've got to stop.

GROSS: That's a sketch from Amy Schumer's show "Inside Amy Schumer" on Comedy Central. Amy, the way I understand it, you asked your sister to move back to New York so she could work with you. And she's been collaborating with you. She worked with you on your new movie "Trainwreck." I think she's worked on your TV show, too.

SCHUMER: She's here. Do you want her to come in?

GROSS: Yes, only if you have time.

SCHUMER: Yeah, you want my sister to come in?

GROSS: Sure, yes.

SCHUMER: All right, Kimmy, come on in - (laughter). She's like, in here.

GROSS: Thank you.

SCHUMER: Hey, put those headsets on.

KIMBERLY CARAMELE: Oh, my God.

SCHUMER: Hi.

GROSS: Hi, Kim, thank you for coming in.

CARAMELE: Thanks for having me.

GROSS: No, my pleasure. So, you know, my understanding is that Amy asked you to move back to New York and leave your job as a psychologist (laughter).

CARAMELE: She did, yeah. I was working in Chicago as a school psychologist.

GROSS: Yeah, to work with her on...

SCHUMER: And I was like, please stop helping children and come write - come write comedy.

CARAMELE: And I haven't helped a child since. It's been...

SCHUMER: Nope, just me.

CARAMELE: ...Just Amy (laughter).

GROSS: Well, let me me start - Amy, why did you want her to come and work with you?

SCHUMER: Mostly 'cause I'm lonely. No, I - she's the funniest person I know. She's - her mind is just - it's - she's got such a good mind. And I just knew that she would be a great writer. And yeah, she's always made everything that I've done better so - so yeah, I was like, please.

CARAMELE: I think it's also helpful - because I know Amy so well, you know, obviously for my whole life - that I understand her humor kind of perfectly. And so when something has to be written in her voice, I just - I know what her voice is and so it's really easy for me to picture things that she would say and how she would say them. And it's just - it's a very natural thing for me to kind of write in her voice.

GROSS: Well, what was your decision-making process like when Amy suggested that you move to New York and collaborate with her and give up your job as a school psychologist?

CARAMELE: I asked, like, how much money do I get?

(LAUGHTER)

SCHUMER: I mean, she owns a home in Chicago - husband, dog. And had - they had to all uproot.

CARAMELE: I just - it was an opportunity to, you know, move back and - we lived together for five months. So I knew that I'd get to spend this time with her and kind of create this thing. And when I was considering it, I just thought that it was going to be for, you know, six months and that it would be kind of like a snapshot of our life, that, like, how could you not do it? I didn't really see it turning into, like, you know...

SCHUMER: And now this is your life.

CARAMELE: And now this is my life. And so it was kind of too exciting a prospect to pass up. Had I known that it would turn to - into this, I would've said yes without any, you know, deliberation.

SCHUMER: Yeah, Kim worked on "Trainwreck." She was a producer and the receptionist, which we cut out.

(LAUGHTER)

SCHUMER: But, yeah - and now we have all these projects together, and so it's very cool.

GROSS: So in the movie "Trainwreck," Amy Schumer has a sister. And, Kim, you do not play that sister, but I'm wondering how much of it is based on you. And there's conflicts between these two sisters. Amy, your character is single and doesn't intend on settling down. And the sister is married with a child and very happily married and wants to convince the sister to settle down and - as they say - as the cliche goes - settle down.

SCHUMER: Yeah.

GROSS: And also they argue about the father. You know, the father was - the father left the family when the girls are young and the father, you know, cheated on the mother when the girls were young. And now he's very opinionated about their lives and kind of has opinions that the sister doesn't really want to hear. So I'm wondering if you as sisters had any of the conflicts that are expressed by the sisters in the movie, and if so, what it was like to work it out in a movie version.

SCHUMER: Well, I would first say that our dad didn't leave us. Our mom left him and - I mean, he probably cheated on Mom, but we never knew about that.

CARAMELE: Yeah.

SCHUMER: (Laughter) Like, I would guess. And I am closer with him than Kim is. We just had different experiences of him 'cause I'm four years older than her, so I got four more years of living in a house with him, like, remembering him singing to us when we would go to bed and tucking us in and being, like, a good dad. And the problems that we deal with - 'cause Kim doesn't have a child and isn't, like, this suburban - hasn't like taken - those are the differences. And I would say Brie Larson, who plays Kim amazingly, has a little more edge than Kim. Like, the real Kim is very, very silly and like a child and still takes care of me and can be stern when I need it and vice versa. But the issues of me feeling a little abandoned because she got married and all these things that I'm not proud of that I didn't realize until I was writing the movie of feeling like someone's pulling away - but and - you know, from her point of view it's like, well, I'm - this is what people do. Like, they meet someone, they fall in love and we can all be a family. It was very difficult and the days that we shot the scenes where the sisters fight, I asked her to not be on set just because it was too painful. And as sisters in real life, we actually never fight. We - yeah, we just don't fight. We express ourselves and we'll say if something hurt us - whatever - but...

CARAMELE: But watching that scene, like, I don't feel like I'm watching, you know, an argument that we have...

SCHUMER: No.

CARAMELE: Or a conflict we have being lived out. I just - I watch Amy and I see her, like - it's a scene where really she's, like, hurting herself and so I feel - it's sad for me seeing her do that. And at the same point, I'm also thinking oh, my God, like, she's such a good actress, like, watching her do this. But I - yeah, watching that scene, it just makes me want to hold her hand and (laughter) you know?

SCHUMER: Yeah, I think a big realization while I was writing this was that my sister - a scene and a line that was cut out of it is me saying, like, you're so sweet for letting me - like, for pretending like I was OK. Like, I say I'm not OK and you're so sweet for letting me - for making me think that I was. And I just realized I've been making my sister watch me hurt myself, you know, for so long and I just thought if I had to see her hurting herself, I just couldn't even do it, so I thought that must have been - that must have been so hard for her. And I just wanted to apologize and let her know that things were going to change.

GROSS: It's been a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you both so much.

SCHUMER: Thank you for having us, Terry.

GROSS: And congratulations on the movie.

CARAMELE: Thank you.

GROSS: It's just so enjoyable. Thank you.

SCHUMER: Thank you. Thank you so much.

GROSS: Amy Schumer wrote and stars in the new film comedy "Trainwreck." Her sister, Kim Caramele, is an associate producer of the film. Today, Amy Schumer was nominated for an Emmy for best lead actress in a comedy series for her performance in her Comedy Central series "Inside Amy Schumer." Kim is a producer and writer on the show. There was a chapter of our interview that there wasn't time for in today's broadcast, but we have it as an extra on our podcast today. Our podcast is also the place to catch up on interviews you missed, like our interview about medical marijuana with Dr. David Casarett or our interview with Ta-Nehisi Coates about how many young African-Americans have been exposed to violence on the streets and from the police.

FRESH AIR'S executive producer is Danny Miller. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Ann Marie Baldonado, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, John Myers, John Sheehan, Heidi Saman and Therese Madden. I'm Terry Gross. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.