NATO Commander: 'Conditions In Eastern Ukraine Have To Change'

Transcript

RENEE MONTAGNE, HOST:

Elsewhere in the program, we heard about the terrible human cost of the conflict in eastern Ukraine.

DAVID GREENE, HOST:

The United Nations says more than 5,300 people have been killed - fighters and civilians - since pro-Russian separatists and Ukrainian forces began fighting last spring.

MONTAGNE: Ukraine and its Western allies say Russia is supplying tanks, artillery and even troops to the separatists - a charge, of course, Russia has been denying.

GREENE: Today, German Chancellor Angela Merkel and French President Francois Hollande are launching another peace effort. They're flying to Kiev to meet with Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko. Tomorrow, they will see Russian President Vladimir Putin in Moscow.

MONTAGNE: Secretary of State John Kerry is also in Kiev today as officials in the Obama administration are weighing whether to provide weapons to Ukraine. The New York Times has reported one person in favor is NATO's supreme allied commander, General Philip Breedlove. He joins us now on the line from Brussels. Good morning.

GENERAL PHILIP BREEDLOVE: Good morning. How are you?

MONTAGNE: Fine, thank you. Now, we know there are meetings going on about arming the Ukrainians. We're hearing this could include sophisticated anti-tank weapons. If those weapons do reach the Ukrainians, how would that change the dynamic on the battlefield?

BREEDLOVE: Well, Renee, I think we should talk a little bit of sort of first things first. I mean, as you sort of captured earlier, the conditions in eastern Ukraine are deteriorating, and Russian support to that continues unabated. And we all believe that the Ukrainian people have a right to defend themselves. NATO, the U.S., other nations are continuing to help in nonlethal ways to give to enable to the Ukrainian people to be able to get to a resolution. And that resolution, we all continue to believe, has got to be a political or diplomatic one. Maybe there are also economic tones, but the bottom line is this conflict will not be settled in a military way. It will be settled by initiatives, just like you mentioned today, of those senior leaders going forward to bring those factions who are clashing in eastern Ukraine to the table. In the middle of that, of course, we are looking at all the tools to enable that political solution.

MONTAGNE: And do the tools include possibly arming the Ukrainians?

BREEDLOVE: Well, I think, Renee, in that cast, I've made my advice available to both my U.S. and NATO leadership through all the appropriate channels. And I think what we should do is let them discuss the tools and how we will try to move forward to find this political solution.

MONTAGNE: Well, let me ask you, how much we know or how much you know about the presence of Russian troops and equipment inside Ukraine.

BREEDLOVE: Right. So we all agree that there are Russian troops in eastern Ukraine. The numbers are not the important piece. There are hundreds and hundreds of them in there. But what is important is what they are doing. They are supplying weapons to the Russian-backed forces in eastern Ukraine. They are supplying supplies and ammunition and capabilities to the Russian-backed forces in eastern Ukraine. We know that they are supplying air defense capabilities and air defense cover, etc., etc. So they are there, and they are enabling their Russian-backed partners in eastern Ukraine to take the actions that they're taking.

MONTAGNE: Well, those partners - the separatist forces - how much are they being controlled directly from Moscow? I'm thinking, is there a specific Russian general overseeing operations?

BREEDLOVE: So what we do know is during the Christmas pause, during both the Christian Christmas pause and the Orthodox Christmas pause, that one of the efforts that was going on east of the line of contact was that they were consolidating command-and-control. As we know, not all of the Russian-backed forces were - may not have been completely in line with what Russia's desires are in eastern Ukraine, and so one of the lines of effort during that pause was to consolidate better command-and-control of the effort to the east of the line. As to specifics, I'm not able to talk to that.

MONTAGNE: This conflict, General, has been going on for over six months now, and there has been Russian military activity close to the borders of the Baltic states that would be NATO members - Latvia, Estonia. There are also NATO troops there in that region. How much of a danger is this? How much of a tinderbox is this?

BREEDLOVE: So first of all, you are right. These are NATO partners - NATO allies in these cases - the three you talked about. And there has been increased activity by Russian long-range aviation, Russian maritime assets, etc., etc., in the past exercises along the border with the ground troops. And that's why NATO - and I think this is important to capture - has done a great job of putting forward our assurance measures. So all the NATO nations - 28 for 28 - involved in assuring those allies who feel most at risk - increased air policing, ground forces in these nations, doing exercises, persistent presence, and when applicable, maritime groups or standing naval groups off of the coast. So NATO has and will continue into the future providing these forces to give assurance to those nations that feel exposed.

MONTAGNE: And may I ask has there been any response by Russian troops to this activity?

BREEDLOVE: Well, clearly the Russians have stepped up their number of sorties and probably more importantly, not the increase in numbers, but the increase in the complexity and type of the sorties that they have employed as well as some of the naval actions at sea. So, yes, Russia has increased, to some degree, its activity in these areas.

MONTAGNE: Well, just briefly - we just have just a couple of seconds here - but at what point would NATO consider getting militarily involved in support of Kiev if ever?

BREEDLOVE: So that, as you know, NATO - we have a great tradition of the military answering to the direction of our political masters. And that would be a decision that the nations - that 28 - would have to take politically. So I don't think that I could judge for the nations on what this would happen. But clearly what we see is that conditions in eastern Ukraine have to change and how we get them to change to a more peaceful solution.

MONTAGNE: General Philip Breedlove, NATO commander, thanks very much.

BREEDLOVE: Thank you, Renee. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.