In 2012, Ian Thorson was found dead in a cave in Arizona. He and his wife had been kicked out of a silent Buddhist retreat that was supposed to last three years, but they decided to finish out the time alone in the desert — and that extreme quest for spiritual enlightenment eventually killed him.
Scott Carney tells that story in his new book, A Death on Diamond Mountain. Carney tells NPR's Rachel Martin that he was drawn to Ian Thorson's story because it felt eerily familiar. Back in 2006, he was leading a program for American students in India. They learned about Buddhism, practiced meditation, and one day, they undertook a particularly dark exercise: It involved imagining themselves as decaying corpses.
Afterwards, one of his brightest students told him it was the most profound experience of her life. That night, she described herself in her journal as a "bodhisattva," just before jumping to her death from the roof of the retreat center. "And this, to me, was this horrifying experience," Carney says. "How could something that is so wonderful, how could go so terribly wrong? I spent the next six years collecting journals of other people who'd had similar experiences. And then when I found out about Ian Thorson's death in 2012, I knew that I wanted to tell the story of spiritual sickness through his eyes."
Interview Highlights
On Ian Thorson
He was this really good-looking, athletic Stanford graduate — and this is when the economy was booming, and almost everyone who went there had the immediate option to get a high-paying job, maybe start a company and get rich. Ian wasn't like that. He wanted to answer the big questions of life, why are we here, and he traveled the world. He went to Turkey, and then on to India and Tibet, and he found this man named Geshe Michael Roach, who was an up and coming Buddhist teacher and an American. And the great thing about Michael Roach was that he could explain the complex Buddhist ideas in just plain English.
On the evolution of Michael Roach
Michael Roach is a very controversial figure in Tibetan Buddhism ... he's an American who, in the early '90s and late 1980s, his teacher told him to go work in the diamond industry in New York City, and use the money he made buying and selling diamonds to fund the monastery. It's a very weird Buddhist lesson, but a diamond is an important symbol in Tibetan Buddhism.
And this is in some ways where he finds the break with Tibetan Buddhism. He believes in something where the world as we all see it, he teaches is an illusion, and that the world as it really exists in an ultimate reality is what you create. It's a manifestation of your own mind. And if you can just change the way you perceive something, the material world will change. And he has several books — some of them were bestsellers — teaching people that they could get rich if they had great karma.
On how Thorson was drawn to Roach
Michael Roach promised to teach tantra, and tantra is how you can achieve enlightenment in this lifetime. And Ian, more than anything else, wanted to grasp the fundamental clockwork of the universe — and Michael Roach said he held the keys to that.
On how Thorson's search for enlightenment led to his death
Well, they went on a three-year silent meditation retreat. And maybe I should introduce another character — there's a woman named Lama Christie McNally, who was at one point the lover and wife of Michael Roach, and after a very controversial breakup she became Ian's lover and wife. But while she was with Michael Roach, Michael Roach declared her a living goddess, he declared her the goddess Vajrayogini, which is "the diamond-like goddess." And she was deified by the people, people would bow at her feet.
And part of the way this group prayed was, they tried to invite deities from the outside world into their internal world and become those deities, almost like they were becoming possessed. And at one moment, she invited the Hindu goddess Kali, who was the goddess of destruction into her meditation, and one thing led to another, and she stabbed Ian Thorson three times with a knife. And she said she was trying to understand violence and the nature of violence, and death, and understand some spiritual lesson out of it — but when the story got out, that didn't play very well among Buddhists, who think of themselves as quite nonviolent.
On Thorson's final days
This instigated them being kicked out of the retreat, she was removed from leadership. And then Christie and Ian hiked off into the mountains. And they vowed they would stay in this cave for the rest of the three years that they were there. And at some point, Ian got sick with dysentery. Christie had with her three things that could help her, right — she had prayers, because she believed that she could control the reality and control sickness — and she had a cell phone, and she had a spot-locator beacon, which is if you press a button, the helicopters will go in and rescue you.
And Ian was sick, he was blanched white, and clearly in very bad shape, and she decided to try to heal him that first day, and it didn't work, and the next day he was dark purple. And on the third day, Ian was passed out and delirious, and then died. Right in her arms. And for me, this was one of those things, how could that spiritual goal be so much more important than something so real? And that's the reason why I began the book. I wanted to know what could be more important than your partner.
On whether Thorson had a spiritual sickness
I think he was sick, and I think many people on this quest can get deluded by that desire to know absolutely. And I believe that very intensive meditiation might be able to accentuate some of these underlying proclivities in us, and push us over the edge. It's a problem that we know about in the traditions and yet you don't really talk about it in the community at large, because I think a lot of people feel that if you mention that there's this dark side to meditation, that you're undercutting the very credibility of the techniques in the first place. But I don't understand why we can't have both, right? Why can't we say, these things can be wonderfully good for you, but maybe like a drug, it's better thought of as powerful, and used in a way that is responsible.
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Transcript
RACHEL MARTIN, HOST:
This is WEEKEND EDITION from NPR News. I'm Rachel Martin. What are the limits of spiritual ambition? Is it worth losing jobs, friends or family? Is it worth losing a life? Those are the kinds of questions Scott Carney asks in a new book that examines the life and death of a man named Ian Thorson. Thorson was an American convert to Tibetan Buddhist who died in 2012 on a spiritual quest that took him to a remote mountainside in Arizona. Scott Carney's book traces the complicated journey that led Thorson to that place. It's called "A Death On Diamond Mountain: A Story Of Obsession, Madness And The Path To Enlightenment." But my conversation with Carney actually started with a story from his own past. In 2006, Scott Carney was leading a group of American students on a visit to India. As part of the program, they were learning about Buddhism. They completed a 10-day silent meditation retreat. One particularly dark exercise involved imagining themselves as decaying corpses. Afterwards one of his brightest students told him it was the most profound experience of her life.
SCOTT CARNEY: Fast forward to later that evening. We're getting ready to leave the monastery. Emily (ph) starts writing in her journal that night. And she writes I am a bodhisattva which means I am on my way to enlightenment. And then she wraps a scarf around her face and then jumps to her death off the roof of the retreat center. And this to me was this horrifying experience. How could something that is so wonderful - how could that go so terribly wrong? And I spent the next six years collecting journals of other people who had had similar experiences. And then when I found out about Ian Thorson's death in 2012, I knew that I wanted to tell the story of spiritual sickness through his eyes.
MARTIN: Spiritual sickness is an interesting phrase. Let's talk about Ian. Ian Thorson - he is the central subject of your book. Can you walk us through who he was, how he first connected with Buddhism?
CARNEY: He was this really good looking, athletic, Stanford graduate. And this is when the economy was booming. And almost everyone who went there had the immediate option to get a high-paying job, maybe start a company and get rich. Ian wasn't like that. He wanted to answer the big questions in life - why are we here? And he traveled the world. He went to Turkey and then on to India and Tibet. And he found this man named Geshe Michael Roach who was an up-and-coming Buddhist teacher and an American. And the great thing about Michael Roach was that he could explain the complex Buddhist ideas in just plain English.
MARTIN: Let's talk more about Michael Roach because while this book isn't centered on him, he's a very important character in this story that unfolds. And you write about his evolution because when he started out he had what appears to be the blessing from the Dalai Lama or at least of traditional corners of Tibetan Buddhism. But then somehow that changed. What happened?
CARNEY: Well, Michael Roach is a very controversial person in Tibetan Buddhism.
MARTIN: ...Today, even.
CARNEY: Today - oh, for sure, today. He's an American, who in the early 90's and late 1980's, his teacher told him to go work in the diamond industry in New York City and use the money he made buying and selling diamonds to fund the monastery. And it's a very weird Buddhist lesson, but a diamond is an important symbol in Tibetan Buddhism. And this is, in some ways, where he finds the break with Tibetan Buddhism. He believes in something where the world, as we all see it, he teaches as an illusion. And that the world as it really exists in an ultimate reality is what you create. It's a manifestation of your own mind. And if you can just change the way you perceive something, the material world will change. And he has several books, some of them were bestsellers, teaching people that they could get rich if they had great karma. He has oil oligarchs in Russia following him. He has tax fraudsters and all sorts of things - people who really love this message - that they're - whatever they've been into in the past doesn't matter.
MARTIN: You write in the book about how the traditionalists and the Dalai Lama himself made a point of publicly distancing themselves from Michael Roach. But Ian Thorson was drawn in by this man. What compelled him? What did Ian see in Michael Roach?
CARNEY: Michael Roach promised to teach tantra. And tantra is how you can achieve enlightenment in this lifetime. And Ian, more than anything else, wanted to grasp the fundamental clockwork of the universe. And Michael Roach said he held the keys to that. Why do bad things happen to good people? Why do we die? What happens next? Michael Roach said he could give him those answers.
MARTIN: So what was it about Michael Roach's brand of Buddhism that became dangerous for Ian?
CARNEY: Well, they went on a three-year silent meditation retreat. And maybe I should introduce another character. There's a woman named Lama Christie McNally who was, at one point, the lover and wife of Michael Roach. And after a very controversial break up, she became Ian's lover and wife. But when she was with Michael Roach, Michael Roach declared her a living goddess. He declared her the goddess Vajrayogini which is the diamond-like goddess. And she was deified by the people. People would bow at her feet.
And part of the way that this group prayed was they tried to invite deities from the outside world into their internal world and become those deities, almost like they're becoming possessed. And at one moment, she invited the Hindu goddess Kali who is the goddess of destruction into her meditation. And one thing led to another and she stabbed Ian Thorson three times with a knife. And she said she was trying to understand violence and the nature of violence and death and understand some spiritual lesson out of it. But when the story got out, that didn't play very well among Buddhists who think of themselves as quite nonviolent. This instigated them being kicked out of the retreat. She was removed from leadership.
And then Christie and Ian hiked off into the mountains, and they vowed that they would stay in his cave for the rest of the three years that they were there. And at some point, Ian got sick with dysentery. Christie had with her three things that could help her, right? She had prayers because she believed that she could control the reality and control sickness. And she had a cell phone. And she had a spot locator beacon, which is if you press the button, the helicopters would go in and rescue you. And Ian was sick. He was blanched white and clearly in very bad shape. And she decided to try to heal him that first day. And it didn't work. And the next day he was dark purple. And on the third day, Ian was passed out and delirious. And then died right in her arms. And for me this is one of those things, like, how could that spiritual goal be so much more important than something so real? And that's the reason why I begin the book. I wanted to know what could be more important than your partner?
MARTIN: How do you think back on Ian Thorson - as a failed spiritual seeker, as someone with spiritual sickness who succumbed to that?
CARNEY: Yeah. I think he was sick. And I think many people on this quest can get diluted by that desire to know absolutely. And I believe that very intensive meditation might be able to accentuate some of these underlying proclivities in us and push us over the edge. It's a problem that we know about in the traditions and yet you don't really talk about it in the community at large because I think a lot of people feel that if you mention that there's this dark side to meditation, that you're undercutting the very credibility of the techniques in the first place. I don't understand why we can't have both. Right? Why can't we say these things can be wonderfully good for you, but maybe, like a drug, they're - it's better thought of as powerful and used in a way that is responsible.
MARTIN: The book is called "A Death On Diamond Mountain." It's written by Scott Carney. He joined us here in our studios in Washington. Thanks so much for talking with us, Scott.
CARNEY: Thank you for having me. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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