Freeman Dyson is one of the most famous names in science, and sometimes one of the most controversial. Dyson is 91 and was one of the British scientists who helped win World War II. He spent most years since as a professor of physics at the Institute for Advanced Study in Princeton, New Jersey. He has won the Max Planck Medal and the Templeton Prize, and written important, oft-quoted books including Disturbing the Universe and The Scientist as Rebel, and newspaper articles that inspire both admiration and debate.
His latest book is Dreams of Earth and Sky, a collection of essays on everything from the history of England's Royal Society to current hot button issues like climate change and information technology — including, in one essay, the possibility of bioengineering human beings the way people now breed flowers. He tells NPR's Scott Simon that there are many different reasons for that kind of project.
Interview Highlights
On bioengineering
You have people who are breeding flowers just for fun because it's beautiful. You make new kinds of tulips and new kinds of roses and you can make new kinds of animals in the same way. Also you can think of preventing hereditary diseases, which are some of the worst, so there are all sorts of different reasons why you might like to do some genetic engineering, either on humans or animals or plants. Each case has to be looked at carefully on its merits, and certainly one set of rules is not going to be applicable to everyone.
On his global warming skepticism
What I would like to emphasize is that human actions have very large effects on the ecology, which have nothing to do with the climate. Carbon dioxide is what we're producing in big quantities and putting into the atmosphere. This happens to be a very good fertilizer for all kinds of vegetation, good for wildlife, good for agricultural production, so it has many benefits. And this is something you have together with the climate effects, which are much less certain, so it's a question of drawing a balance. I'm just saying I don't understand it and neither does anybody else. I'm skeptical because I don't think the science is at all clear, and unfortunately a lot of the experts really believe they understand it, and maybe have the wrong answer.
Of course [the weather] concerns me, but of course, we don't know much about the causes of those things. We don't even know for sure whether it is more variable than it used to be. I mean the worst disasters were the Ice Ages, and nobody really understands for sure the causes of Ice Ages, so I'm not saying the climate disasters aren't real, I'm merely saying we don't know how to prevent them.
On his recommendations for change
I would say one of the first things we should try to do is to get rid of poverty, human poverty. When people are poor, they can't take care of nature around them. They just have to survive as best they can, so that some of the poorest people are actually the most destructive. So I would say if you can deal with poverty, that's something very positive, which we should be doing. Also preservation of habitat, of wildlife, all sorts of problems we have to deal with, of which climate is one, and I would say climate is not the most urgent.
On Stephen Hawking's comment that human beings have just a thousand years left on earth, and that if we're going to survive, we're going to have to relocate
I hope we will. Not to relocate so much, but just to spread out, not just humans, but life as a whole. There's all this wonderful universe, which seems to be dead as far as we can tell, which would be much more beautiful when it comes to life, but I don't say it has to happen. People who are around at that time have to make the choice.
On whether we'll still be human at that point
There again, it's a question of choice. The normal course of events and biology, either a species go extinct, or else it splits in to many successful species, end up as being ten species or 100. That's what evolution is all about, so I think it's very likely that will happen to humans as well. And if I were going to live on Mars, I would like to have first so I can wander around in a very cold climate. And undoubtedly when people live on Mars, they will want to be different just to be adapted to the environment, rather than trying to adapt the environment to them.
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Transcript
SCOTT SIMON, HOST:
Freeman Dyson is one of the most famous names in science, and sometimes one of the most controversial. Doctor Dyson is 91 and was one of the British scientists who helped win World War II. He spent most years since as a professor of physics at the Institute for Advanced Study in Princeton, N.J. He has won the Max Planck Medal and the Templeton Prize, among scores more, and written important oft-quoted books, including "Disturbing The Universe" and "The Scientist As Rebel." He writes frequently for The New York Review of Books, where his articles stir admiration and debate. His latest collection is "Dreams Of Earth And Sky." And Dr. Dyson joins us now from Princeton, N.J.
Thanks so much for being with us.
FREEMAN DYSON: Great, I'm happy to be here.
SIMON: The opening essay in this book startled me, "Our Biotech Future." It made me think - and I must tell you, made me worry a little bit for my children. You foresee a time where scientists begin to re-engineer humans the way that breeders now develop new kinds of flowers.
DYSON: Right.
SIMON: Ideally, how would that kind of bioengineering help us?
DYSON: Well, it's a question of multiple purposes, multiple motives. You have people who are breeding flowers just for fun because it's beautiful. You make new kinds of tulips or new kinds of roses and you can make new kinds of animals in the same way. Also, you can think of preventing hereditary diseases, which are some of the worst. So there are all sorts of different reasons why you might like to do some genetic engineering, either on humans or animals or plants. Each case has to be looked at carefully on its merits and certainly one set of rules is not going to be applicable to everyone.
SIMON: You were good enough to reprint a very eloquent letter that Wendell Berry, the writer and poet, sent to The New York Review - criticized what you had to say. Let me read a line from him. He says (reading) after a long experience of problems caused by industrial solutions, might not a little skepticism be in order?
DYSON: Well, I'm a skeptic if anybody is. You can be a skeptic and still not be paralyzed. We have always the choice of doing nothing, but usually that doesn't work out so well either.
SIMON: In recent years, you've stirred up a controversy with some of what you said about global warming. And I'm not going to make any attempt to characterize your views. I noticed that your own book jacket calls them politically incorrect. So let me just get you to tell us why you think some of the most dire predictions we've heard don't hold up.
DYSON: Well, what I would like to emphasize is that human actions have very large effects on the ecology which have nothing to do with climate. Carbon dioxide is what we're producing in big quantities and putting into the atmosphere. It happens to be a very good fertilizer for all kinds of vegetation, good for wildlife, good for agricultural production. So it has many benefits. And this is something you have together with the climate effects, which are much less certain. So it's a question of drawing a balance. I'm just saying I don't understand it and neither does anybody else. I'm skeptical because I don't think the science is at all clear and unfortunately, a lot of the experts really believe they understand it and maybe have the wrong answer.
SIMON: Yeah. But I have to ask you, I think a lot of people - particularly the weather we've had over the past couple of years, seems much more volatile and we see video of polar bears having to swim for their lives and ice flows melting - I could go on. That must concern you.
DYSON: Of course it concerns me, but of course we don't know much about the causes of those things. I mean, the worst disasters were the Ice Ages and nobody really understands for sure the causes of Ice Ages. So I'm not saying that the climate disasters aren't real. I'm merely saying we don't know how to prevent them.
SIMON: Well, what would your recommendation be as a scientist? You just talked when it comes to bioengineering that it's dangerous to do nothing.
DYSON: Yes, and certainly I would say one of the first things we should try to do is to get rid of poverty - human poverty. When people are poor, they can't take care of nature around them. They just have to survive as best they can so that some of the poorest people are actually the most destructive. So I would say if we can deal with poverty, that's something very positive which we should be doing. Also, preservation of habitat of wildlife. All sorts of problems we have to deal with, which climate is one. And I would say climate is not the most urgent.
SIMON: Do you feel you've been villainized ever?
DYSON: No - on the contrary. People are very friendly.
SIMON: (Laughter). Well, we'll get some emails when this interview airs, you know?
DYSON: Yes, I get some hate mail from people who bought Dyson vacuum cleaners and they hold me responsible.
SIMON: (Laughter). So you're not that guy? Oh.
DYSON: No, I'm not that guy. Well, actually I rather like him. He's a good guy.
SIMON: I note this week that Stephen Hawking's quoted as saying that, "we human beings have just a thousand years left on this earth and that if we're going to survive, we're going to have to relocate." How do you feel about that?
DYSON: I hope we will. I think that - not to relocate so much, but just to spread out. Not just humans, but life as a whole. There's all this wonderful universe which seems to be dead as far as we can tell, and it will be much more beautiful when it comes to life. But I don't say it has to happen. People who are around at that time have to make the choice.
SIMON: Would we still be human?
DYSON: There again, it's a question of choice. The normal course of events in biology, either a species goes extinct or else it splits into many. Successful species end up as being 10 species or a hundred. That's what evolution is all about. So I think it's very likely that will happen to humans as well. And if I were going to live on Mars, I would like to have fur so I can wander around in a very cold climate. Undoubtedly when people live on Mars, they will want to be different just to be adapted to the environment, rather than trying to adapt the environment to them.
SIMON: Freeman Dyson, his new collection of essays drawn from The New York Review of Books is "Dreams Of Earth And Sky."
Dr. Dyson, thanks so much for being with us.
DYSON: Thank you. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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