After a roast, comic Nikki Glaser says she needs to cleanse her brain

Transcript

TERRY GROSS, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR. I am Terry Gross. My guest is comic Nikki Glaser, and I've been trying to figure out how I'm going to talk to her because so much of her comedy is about sex and pretty explicit language, and that is language we can't use on a broadcast, maybe particularly on public radio.

One of her comedy specials is called "Good Clean Filth." She says that she talks about her privates so much, she thinks of them as her publics. Her comedy is about the pleasures, insecurities, embarrassments and absurdities involved with sex. Sex isn't her only subject. In her new comedy special, "Someday You'll Die," she also talks about why she doesn't want to have children, her thoughts on monogamy, her experiences with depression and suicidal thinking, getting older - she's 40 - and how comics are often afraid of getting canceled.

I think she's really funny. Watching her work, I'm fascinated by how often she walks the line between incredibly perceptive and potentially tasteless or offensive. Sometimes I laugh out loud and I start wondering, is it OK to laugh at this? That's especially true when she's featured at a roast, walking the line between hilarious and maybe a little too personal or a little cruel.

She made headlines in May at the roast of Tom Brady. Other people she's roasted include Rob Lowe, Alec Baldwin and Bruce Willis. She's been a contestant on reality shows, including "Dancing With The Stars," and hosted reality shows, including "FBoy Island" and the current sequel "Lovers And Liars." She's had comedy specials on Comedy Central, Netflix and HBO. Her latest, "Someday You'll Die," is streaming on Max.

Note to parents - in case this isn't clear by now, we're going to have an adult conversation. So be advised. Nikki Glaser, welcome to FRESH AIR. You know, one of the things I really like about your comedy is it gets me to ask myself, where is the line between hilarious and tasteless or hilarious and maybe a little cruel? Do you wonder where the line is between tasteless and cruel? Do you want me to be thinking about that when I listen to your comedy?

NIKKI GLASER: You know, no. I think that what I intend is just to say what's honest and what is funny to me. And it's always interesting to hear how people perceive or take in my comedy because I never intend -tasteless is totally fine, but it is a word that, like, no one aspires to be, but I can't refute it because it is. And I don't really know - my real only motivation for what I write and what I say on stage is to make people laugh, but also just be honest and kind of say the thing that I'm frustrated more people aren't saying out loud that I'm observing. I think that's more of where it all comes from.

GROSS: I really think you succeed in that.

GLASER: Thank you.

GROSS: And I like the fact that it challenges me to think about, where is the line? So that's part of what I enjoy about your comedy.

GLASER: Thank you.

GROSS: So...

GLASER: Yeah, I don't love people getting offended. I think sometimes because of the nature of what I talk about, people think that I enjoy if people leave a show or are scoffing at things or groaning at things. And I think - all I want is people to like me, really. And it's a weird approach to achieve that.

GROSS: (Laughter).

GLASER: But it's worked in many aspects, but it's been a roundabout kind of way of getting there. But it really is the underlining motivation, is, like, just like me, which I think is most comedians.

GROSS: How did sex and your own body become the focus of so much of your comedy?

GLASER: You know, sex was always the scariest thing to me. It was always the most interesting thing. I - you know, I didn't have sex till I was 21. I didn't kiss a boy till I was 18, I think. I was scared of boys. I was scared of sex. I was, you know, in a constant battle with my body from the age of 17 on of just not liking what it was and being ashamed of it. So I think I - immediately when I started doing stand-up was attracted to those kind of unspeakable things that I was just wondering why more people don't talk about, especially when it comes to sex. I just - I think the fear that I had around it- that I was going to be bad at it, that I was going to get made fun of, that I was going to do it wrong - it was all because I just didn't know what was going on in there, and no one was talking about it.

So as soon as I started kind of partaking in it, I kind of wanted to get the word out to girls like me that might be terrified and wondering what is going on in there because, you know, the places where we find out - it's either, you know, sex ed or porn, and there's nothing in between. And neither of those are really realistic representations of sex. And so I just - I felt like I was kind of filling this void that I felt growing up of information.

GROSS: Did you have friends who had sex before you did who could fill you in? Or were you uncomfortable...

GLASER: Yeah.

GROSS: ...Just talking about it?

GLASER: You know, yeah. I didn't get my period until I was really late in high school. I was the last to do everything of my girlfriends. So I kind of had all the information when I was ready to finally do it. So when it came to sex and everything, yeah, I mean, I would go down to, like, OK, so you get alone with a boy. Like, does he touch your leg? Does he touch your arm? And then how do you kiss? Does he move in for it? I mean, I wanted to know every little moment so that I could avoid being made fun of by boys. And that's - let's get to it - is the other motivation for what I do is, like, I just don't want to be made fun of or mocked, especially by boys.

And I think that's - I'm kind of stuck in that middle school or maybe early high school self where I did get kind of made fun of. Not mercilessly, or not, you know, all the time, but enough times that I was like, OK, my goal is to just always control this situation. So they can't make fun of me.

GROSS: So you were afraid you would get made fun of because you were bad at sex. Did anybody actually make fun of you during or after a sexual encounter?

GLASER: No. I don't think so. Not that I can recall. I'm sure it's happened behind my back. And, yeah, I think as an adult, I've heard - I remember things I did, and I can only assume that the male comics I was hooking up with when these things happened talked about it. But what I do...

GROSS: Oh, wait a minute. Stop just right there for a second.

GLASER: (Laughter).

GROSS: There's a lot of male comics who, like you, talk about sex a lot.

GLASER: Yeah.

GROSS: That strikes me - if you're self-conscious and worried that people are going to make fun of you, having relationships with comics seems to me like a very hazardous situation.

GLASER: Well, that's why I never got a relationship out of any of it.

GROSS: (Laughter).

GLASER: I was always just, like - they were just - that's where alcohol came in.

GROSS: Seriously?

GLASER: Like, so when I discovered drinking, then all my fears went out the window. And then, you know, which is the worst thing that could happen because when I was drunk, I would do way more embarrassing things and act a fool more so than if I had been sober, but I was just too scared to do anything sober. So, you know, the only way I ever had sex or was intimate with a man was to drink to the point of blackout. And then by the time I was 27, I quit drinking. So I had about six years of fun that I don't really remember, but I just was observant of what men said about women around me. And I think that's where I got the idea that they talk about us. Not so much it happened to me, but I had male friends. And I had - I wasn't doing comedy before I was sexually active. So I was paying attention to how men talk to other men in a funny way about women. And I was like, I just don't want that to be me.

GROSS: Well, when you started in comedy, when you were doing open mics, was it mostly male comics talking about sex? - 'cause there was a period of so much of that.

GLASER: Yeah. It was. It was early 2000s, and I came up in the Kansas City and St. Louis comedy scenes, which I feel are notoriously pretty dirty, you know, both the clubs are dirty, but, like, also the comedy that comes out of it, I was just like, how can you get groans? How can we offend the crowd? That was the goal was just to say the grossest, most offensive thing. So that was kind of my training ground. And obviously, yeah, it was - it was more the way men talked offstage, I would say, than onstage, that made me think, I just don't want to be a part of this locker room talk where someone's mocking me. And, you know, you can't really control it, but I've tried as much as I can.

GROSS: How did you want to talk about sex onstage, and *****

GROSS: **** onstage in a way that was different from the male comics that you heard coming up.

GLASER: You know, it wasn't like I was saying, oh, you know, male comics are getting it wrong, and I need to take back the story and represent what we're going through. It was really just about how strange it was to me that we are doing this thing. And I thought, I'm finally going to get to say how I felt my whole life, which is, like, what I would say to my friends in high school when they started making out with boys and kissing them. I'm like, how is it that I can't sip from your soda because you're a germophobe, but then you can make out with a guy who probably doesn't brush his teeth and have good oral hygiene? Like, I just don't understand what's going on here.

And then how do we all agree to - you go on a date with a guy, and you're on your best behavior, and you're trying to look so prim and proper and make sure you don't have food in your teeth and your hair is perfect and your nose is powdered. And then you - within an hour, you're naked and grunting with this person and slobbering all over each other. It just seemed insane to me. And I think doing stand-up was the first opportunity I got to, like, position this question to people and have people go, oh, yeah, that is kind of weird. Maybe you're not alone in thinking this is bizarre that we are expected to do this when we get older.

I really didn't like that I was going to have to grow up and have sex. It terrified me. And then I think when I finally got a mic in front of my face, I just couldn't wait to talk about the things I was observing that seemed just insane to me that we have to do or even want to do.

GROSS: That's one of the things I find very interesting about you, is - on the one hand, you seem to really enjoy sex and are very sex positive. At the same time, you point out all of the absurdities and the embarrassments, the insecurities, the things you really don't like. And it's an interesting combination that I think so many people experience, and you're saying it.

GLASER: That's always been the goal is just to mention the unmentionable. And as I've dealt with, like, addictions and just problems with my mental health, it's like - that's always the answer to solving it, is admitting that there's a problem. So it's like, I kind of stumbled into comedy as a way to cope with all these feelings.

GROSS: Well, we have to take a short break here, so let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Nikki Glaser. Her latest comedy special, "Someday You'll Die," is streaming on Max. We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF NAOMI MOON SIEGEL'S "IT'S NOT SAFE")

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Nikki Glaser. Her latest comedy special, "Someday You'll Die," is streaming on Max. And note to parents - if you're just tuning in, she talks about sex a lot in her comedy, and we're talking about that some in this interview. So use your discretion if you have children in the car.

You've been in a relationship for about 10 years, and it's been a little on-again, off-again. I think it's very on-again right now. But in periods when you are seeing other people, do men have weird expectations of you and what you will be like in bed because of your comedy?

GLASER: Oh, my God. I really don't even consider that. I feel so disconnected from being, like, a sex comic. I feel, like, more that I'm just commenting on this thing that exists rather than talking about my own sex life, but I certainly do talk about my own sex life.

I think it was tough because I think I - when I did go out there and date in the last few years, men were just scared that I was going to talk about them on stage. And they should have been because I didn't really have good boundaries until recently around that stuff. And I was doing to guys the same thing that I feared they would do to me, you know?

I - and I was always anonymously -but there was a part of me that, you know, if a guy hurt me or that I - yeah, there was a part of me that wanted to hurt them back with my material and take control of the situation. And I think that's why I like Taylor Swift so much.

GROSS: What does Taylor Swift have to do with it?

GLASER: Well, I think Taylor Swift is able to get revenge for being hurt in songs, you know, and be able to take control of the heartbreak that she's endured and take control of the narrative of what happened and kind of writes to the idea of a man hearing this on the radio, the guy that hurt her having to, like, deal with her the rest of his life.

GROSS: If you were using the stage for revenge, especially if it was revenge against male comics who you had dated, did that affect your image within comedy circles?

GLASER: Yes. It was not good. I was really angry at - there's - I did it a couple times where someone would hurt me, and they just didn't like me. That was their crime. (Laughter) That's such a horrible thing.

Like, they're - now that I look back on it, like, I spun it so much of, like - of what a jerk they were, how cruel they were, when they really just didn't maybe find the best way to let me off the hook or, you know, break up with me. But they weren't - they didn't - but they weren't bad people, but I would spin it that way onstage. And, you know, people kind of knew maybe who I was talking about, or at least maybe that person was sometimes in the room when I was doing a joke about dating them. And I would try to hurt them in that joke.

I don't do that anymore, but it was probably six years ago that I stopped 'cause I really did hurt someone that would then avoid me in the comedy scene. And I just - I felt horrible about it. I've since apologized, and we're cool. But yeah, that was not a shining moment, but it was the only thing I could do to feel better and to not feel like such a loser and to feel rejected and - yeah.

GROSS: So I want to play another clip, and this is from an earlier special of yours, and it's about maiden names. And I just think it's really funny. So let's hear this clip, and then we'll talk some more.

(SOUNDBITE OF COMEDY SPECIAL, "NIKKI GLASER: PERFECT")

GLASER: I also don't like the fact that when you get married as a woman, you just kind of give up your last name. It's nice to take your husband's name, but then you're like, oh, this thing I've had my whole life that's my whole identity, that my great-grandparents came through Ellis Island with - I'll just throw it in the trash. This guy seems cool. Bye. Like, that's - what? You really - like, your name is nothing after you get married. All it is is, like, your son's bank account security question answer. That's all your name is.

(LAUGHTER)

GLASER: What? Only time it comes up - yeah. And he's got to call you 'cause he doesn't even know it. Like...

(LAUGHTER)

GLASER: That's the one call you get from him a month. Mom, I'm locked out of my account again. Hey, what's your old name?

(LAUGHTER)

GLASER: He calls it an old name. You're like, you mean my maiden name? He's like, Whatever. Jones. He's like, can you spell it? You're like, Jesus Christ. Why couldn't you see a baby?

That is weird that that's the question that they came up with. Like, the banks were like, what worthless piece of information could we ask for that no one would ever know about this man to protect his finances? And some guy's like, what about his mother's name? They're like, perfect. Who gives a [expletive], right? His mother's name. That's the question. That seems like some thing people should know about you, but it's that question and then your first concert. So it's your name, and then your son's first concert, or your name and Limp Bizkit are just fighting for the top spot.

(LAUGHTER)

GLASER: So rude.

GROSS: I have to say, Nikki, I never thought about that with the bank security question. There's so many security questions where it's mother's maiden name.

GLASER: Yeah.

GROSS: It's really funny. I take it, you would never change your name if you did get married. I mean, you can't in a way, because your name - it's a famous name. You can't - I mean, you could.

GLASER: Yeah.

GROSS: But why would you want to change your name 'cause it's already a marquee name?

GLASER: Yeah. Like, I might change it just for - just...

GROSS: Legally.

GLASER: Yeah, just for fun, if it sounded cool or looked cool or something or just, you know - I don't really have this, like, huge stance about - this feminist stance about - I mean, I think it's dumb that we do it, but I kind of, like - I'm like, oh, it could be fun to change my name. But that special, I think was from 2016. I think that was the first time I had ever felt really a frustration about my friends, like, getting married. Like, starting to see it happening and being like, why do we have to do this thing? Now we have to have kids. Like all these things were now being expected of me. Much like how I felt about sex. Like, I'm not ready to do this. And like, why do we have to do it? And I think that was my first kind of frustration about marriage that I had expressed in stand-up.

GROSS: What are your thoughts about marriage? Do you want to get married at some point?

GLASER: I do now because I can get a divorce. I've been like, oh...

GROSS: (Laughter).

GLASER: ...What have I been so scared of? Like, I think - there's an out, you know? Like, that's why the kids for me is different. There's like, no out to it. You know, I do understand why people get married now. I think I was really judgmental about it before, and it just felt like this thing that just women needed to achieve to feel complete. But now that I've found someone that I'm like, oh, I get, like, wanting to partner up with someone and be like, this is my person.

And also, with my parents getting older, like, I always just felt like, I don't need to make a new family? I got my family. I like mine, but now my family's - I see that in the future, they might not all be there. And I'm like, OK, oh, I got to make my own. Like, this is all just dawning on me now. And so, for the first time ever, I'm like, yeah, I could get married, but it is because there's - I could always get out of it. And my partner feels the same way. He's like, yeah, we could just divorce. Like, it's cool. And I think I like kind of talking that logically about it.

GROSS: What about having children? You've talked as recently as your latest comedy special about not wanting to have children. Now that you're 40 and it would be more difficult (laughter)...

GLASER: Yeah.

GROSS: ...To conceive, do you have second thoughts about that?

GLASER: No, I can't wait till it's - I mean, obviously, I can wait with everything that comes with menopause, but I think the cool thing about menopause is that it's like no one's being like, are you going to do it? You know, like, it's not a conversation piece. It's not like, you still could. I don't like this - the kind of in between area where it's still an option for me. Because I've analyzed it a lot. I have a lot of friends that have kids, and I just don't think it's for me. I - it just seems too hard. And that's really what it comes down to. I just don't think that I'll be that good at it. I think I would be good at it, but it would be at the sacrifice of other things that I really care about being good at.

And I'm not even joking. I just like naps too much. And I just I love rest, and I love being able to sleep when I want to sleep, and I like not feeling guilty that I'm not playing with something and, like, I feel guilty about being a not good enough aunt, and I didn't even choose to be that. So I can only imagine being a mother and the guilt I would feel constantly. I just don't want it. And I know I'm missing out, but that's OK. I'm alright with missing out on that thing. I think my life will feel pretty - I have a lot going on that gives me purpose.

GROSS: Yeah. So we have to take a short break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Nikki Glaser. Her latest comedy special, "Someday You'll Die," is streaming on Max. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF THE ADAM DEITCH QUARTET'S "PLAY ON PLAYA")

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with comic Nikki Glaser. One of her favorite subjects onstage is sex, and that's true of her new comedy special, "Someday You'll Die," which is streaming on Max. In the special, she also talks about why she doesn't want to have children, her thoughts on monogamy, her experiences with depression and suicidal thinking, getting older - she's 40 now - and how comics are often afraid of getting canceled. And note to parents - if you're just tuning in, she talks about sex a lot in her comedy, and we're talking about that some in this interview. So use your discretion if you have children in the car.

So a lot of comics complain about how you can't say anything anymore without risking being canceled, especially if you're performing on a college campus. And you kind of address that in your latest comedy special. And, I mean, like, you talk about how, like, you cannot make jokes about rape. But if you...

GLASER: Yeah.

GROSS: ...Were raped, then people will be relieved. Like, oh, I don't have to be upset that she's making a rape joke 'cause she was raped, so she's allowed to talk about it.

GLASER: Yeah.

GROSS: And I want to play an excerpt of that part of your performance. So here we go.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "SOMEDAY YOU'LL DIE")

GLASER: I have jokes, though, that I want to do that I can't because I don't have any family members with autism. That's the jokes I have. I can't. I have autism jokes because I've dated guys with it, and they were diagnosed by me and TikTok. So I know...

(LAUGHTER)

GROSS: ...That they have it. It's confirmed. But I can't do the jokes 'cause I don't have any family members with autism. I mean, I will say my nephew is 2 1/2, and he isn't talking yet, so fingers crossed. But, like, I...

(LAUGHTER)

GLASER: We didn't get a diagnosis in time for the special, so it's a bummer. I'll get canceled at some point. The cancel train is coming for old Glase-talk (ph), for sure. And my nephew is going to love that train 'cause - but...

(LAUGHTER)

GLASER: I got one in. I got one in.

GROSS: So, Nikki, when you did that whole bit about saying what you can't say unless you have that condition yourself or are close to somebody who does, were you afraid of risking insulting people with autism or women who were raped or any of the other things you talk about, including suicidal thinking?

GLASER: The first two, yes - not for suicidal thinking because that is something that I do struggle with. And so I felt like, OK, I really - I have a right to talk about this thing. The other two, yeah, because I don't have - I don't - I'm not autistic, and I have not been the victim of sexual violence. And so I felt - I do feel bad. You know, there's certainly people who are even triggered by the word that are probably hearing it now and are reliving some awful thing that happened to them. And I - for that, I'm sorry that they feel that way.

So I don't enjoy - I feel like I have a right to talk about rape because I definitely am fearful of it, and it is something that could happen to me, you know? And - but I do feel that it is so just if someone is like, I was offended by what you said. I'm just like, oh, yeah, you - yeah, I get that. I'm sorry. And I'll - you know, I've offered to refund people's money if they - if you have, like, a panic attack at my show because I talk about a subject that is really close and personal to you and traumatized you, I'll give you your money back, or at least the part of the ticket that I made out of the money, because I don't want anyone to have a bad experience.

But I definitely don't think that that's reason enough not to talk about these things because I really - although that train joke was kind of like a dumb autism, like, stereotypical joke, I do think that my jokes aren't meant to be cruel or make fun of anyone who's a victim or has a condition or - you know? I don't think autism's a condition. I don't think we call it that. But I should educate myself on what to say for that.

But, yeah, I don't want to offend anyone, but I do want to talk about these things because I have dated guys with autism, I think, and I have some things to say about it. And it just bums me out that I can't because I don't get this leniency that other comedians might get because they have a family member. And I do think that they have a right to talk about it, too, because they have a family member. They have a different perspective.

But I think I have a right to talk about it, even if I know nothing about it. Like, I just don't - I don't understand this rule of, like, you only get to talk about things that you've lived because, also, I am just a comedian. I might not have the right take. I'm not right about everything, and I'm not enacting change politically with my stand-up. It's just an entertainment thing. So it's - for me to be taken so seriously that - you said this thing, and it's offensive. It's like, well, I'm a clown. There's nothing that is - there's no requirements or courses I had to take. I have no certification for what I'm doing, so you shouldn't expect me to get everything right. And I am completely open to people saying, hey, you have the wrong take on this, and here's why, and for me to adjust my joke to that. I have no problem with that.

GROSS: Can you give us an example of an adjustment that you made?

GLASER: No. You know, I can't think of one because people don't really get as offended. And when they do get offended, there's nothing that I can adjust to even make them feel better because they're usually offended about just the word, and they're usually offended on behalf of someone else and a group of people that have nothing to do with what I'm talking about. Or they're usually offended on a - behalf of a group of people that they're not even in and that they feel like they have to stand up for. And so I just work hard to get it right. And it's such an achievement for me to talk about something like, you know, suicide and have it be one of my favorite parts of my set that doesn't seem to upset anyone or alienate the crowd.

I mean, that - a chunk I have about suicide in my latest special - that wasn't doing well onstage for a while. Like, it wasn't, like, offending people and people weren't, like, leaving, but it wasn't, like - it wasn't doing what it finally ended up doing when I really just made it personalized and found a way to talk about it that made everyone go, well, I guess we can't be mad she's talking about this because it is something she's thought about. And it's maybe something that we've thought about, too, that we're kind of ashamed we've thought about.

GROSS: When you are in a period of deep depression, are you capable of performing? And also, as somebody who I'm sure has listened to a lot of comedy over the years, does comedy ever help pull you out of despair?

GLASER: It's hard to perform when I'm really, really depressed. But I will say that it's hard to get to the theater and to be backstage and to think, I'm about to go do this thing. I have to turn this on. But I will say, the second I step out there, the adrenaline kicks in, and it will offer me relief. And then I get - and then I'm able to be honest about it. Like, I can kind of - that's a nice thing about doing stand-up is I don't have to perform just the same songs every night or the same play. It's like, I get to kind of say what I want to say, so I can kind of talk about it and work through it in that way.

And then, yeah, I mean, I would say yes about comedy lifting me out of it. I think that - that's why I tend to make fun of its because I need to, like, laugh about how awful I feel. And - but I will say reaching for a stand-up special or a show that makes me laugh is not a thing that I go to as much as I probably should when I'm feeling depressed. It's - I get into the kind of depression where I almost like want it to stay because I feel like it's this is the real way I'm supposed to feel. And I don't want to be tricked into thinking things are all right, and I don't want to take my meds because that's me living in a delusional world. Like, this is how I'm supposed to feel.

So when I'm in those deep depressions, when they really take hold, there's really nothing but waiting sometimes that'll get me out of it. And also meds. But I'm learning to more often turn to comedy and watching something that'll make me laugh like "I Think You Should Leave" or "Veep" or putting on a "Seinfeld" to reorient me. And - but it has to be early stages of when I just get those first kind of I think of depression as like getting a flu, and when I first get those sniffles or a little sore throat, like, a little tingle in the back of my throat of depression, that's when I need to throw on some comedy. And it really does help. And I'm realizing that late in my life, actually. My depression is way more in check now.

GROSS: Well, I'm glad things have gotten better on that front.

GLASER: Thank you.

GROSS: Yeah. We have to take another break. So let me reintroduce you again. If you're just joining us, my guest is comic Nikki Glaser and her latest comedy special, "Someday You'll Die," is streaming on Max. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF COLD BLOOD'S "UNDERSTANDING")

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Nikki Glaser. Her latest comedy special, "Someday You'll Die," is streaming on Max. I want to talk with you about roasts. You are very funny at roasts in a way that makes me laugh, but also makes me uncomfortable because it really cuts. I mean, I would never want to be roasted by you (laughter).

GLASER: No. I wouldn't either.

GROSS: I bet you wouldn't want to be roasted by you either, right? Yeah.

GLASER: No. I get roasted by me - that's the thing. It's like, I developed this skill because of what I say to myself a lot of times. I think I just made that connection recently of, like - I think on this last roast, I'm thinking, what are they going to say about me? And I'm like, you've already said it to yourself at some point. Like, they can't come at you for anything new. I mean, they find a way. Sometimes you go, oh, man, I didn't even notice that about myself. But yeah, It's crazy that - I watch clips of myself at roasts, and I go, who do you think you are talking to someone like this? I really - it's an out-of-body experience, and I just really have to almost play a character.

GROSS: Well, yeah, first of all, yeah, some of your performances are like, auto-roasting, roasting yourself. But like I don't - I think roasts end up being really funny, and roasts are sometimes a little cruel. But it's such a weird phenomenon that comics get together and choose a willing victim and just...

GLASER: Yeah.

GROSS: ...Insult them with punchlines. It's so strange.

GLASER: It really is when you say it like that. Like, I don't know - I understand why people love it because it's just saying things that you would never be able to say and the person's sitting right there, and so it feels like it's OK because they're laughing along with it. So it makes us all feel better about what we're laughing about. But it is insane. I don't know why anyone signs up for it. I'm grateful that they do. And that is the only reason I can even do it is because I know they're signing up for it. I mean, I really respect - you know, in terms of Tom Brady, I was like, I can't believe he's going to do this. And because he said yes to it, it's kind of like, unless you tell me things are off limits, I'm going to go there. I have license. I have your consent.

And then I go and, boy, yeah, I just - I can't believe the places my mind will go to. I really do have to do kind of a cleanse after I write for a roast because my mind is in just such a bad place where I'm just constantly thinking the worst thing about someone looking at pictures of them, thinking, what is something I can think about them that is going to haunt them the rest of their life 'cause I'm gonna reveal it to everyone. I mean, it's a disgusting place to write from, but that's the job.

GROSS: Oh, OK. So I want to play an example.

GLASER: God.

GROSS: So this was during the roast of Tom Brady in May that was carried live on Netflix. And, you know, you talk about how he's the greatest quarterback of all time. And you know, he announced his retirement in 2022 and then returned for another season and then retired for real last year. So here's an excerpt of what you said about Tom Brady with, of course, Tom Brady being in the room.

(SOUNDBITE OF COMEDY SPECIAL, "THE ROAST OF TOM BRADY")

GLASER: You really are - I mean, you're the best to ever play for too long. I mean, you retired, then you came back, and then you retired again. I mean, I get it. It's hard to walk away from something that's not your pregnant girlfriend. It's tough.

(LAUGHTER)

GLASER: Hey; to be fair, he didn't know she was pregnant. He just thought she was getting fat.

(LAUGHTER)

GLASER: And Tom hates fat. I mean, do you guys know about his diet program? It is so strict, but if you follow it exactly as he does, you too can lose your family. And - seriously.

(LAUGHTER)

GROSS: So, Nikki Glaser, that is a stinging joke. And, you know, one of the things I notice at roasts is these, like, forced smiles and, like, ha ha ha - like, I'm going to show I can laugh at this, and you can tell a person's just kind of, like, dying inside.

GLASER: Yeah.

GROSS: So how do you figure out if jokes like the one we just hear you tell about Tom Brady is too personal or too cutting, too cruel not only to Tom Brady but to the girlfriend he left years ago?

GLASER: Yeah, I felt like I was sticking up for her in a way with that joke. And maybe that's me trying to soften it for myself, but I felt like I was more coming at him than her. And calling - I like the idea of me defending him and saying, you guys, chill out. He just thought she was getting kind of fat, which is also calling him out for being, you know, just - you know, he broke up - I don't know what happened the relationship, but it ended, and then he ends up dating a model, and his girlfriend was pregnant. It seems to me to be that would be the number one thing we can joke about. So for me to get through that whole roast and see that no one else mentioned that incident in his life, I was shocked because it's a guessing game, Terry. Like, it really is like, is this going to fly? Is this going to be OK? I really don't know until I get there. And thank God he is kind of, like, behind me because I don't want to look at him. It's so - it's insane. I can't even - I did those jokes so much leading up to it, practicing around town. He wasn't there for those. But when you finally get up there, it's really scary to say these to someone's face. And thank God, he's barely in my periphery, because I don't know that I could do it if he - if I had to look at him during it.

But at that point, I was so on autopilot and had the set so locked from practicing that it didn't matter anymore. And I almost didn't have feeling behind the - like, I just didn't even think about how those jokes could affect him because I - you have to divorce yourself from that to even get it done.

GROSS: Did he ever contact you personally, or did you ever contact him personally after that?

GLASER: No. I wouldn't even know how to do that. I did see him in the hallway afterwards and just wanted to tell him how great I thought his set was at the end of a really long night, when everyone was tired, he killed, and - which is - he was so impressive. So I just wanted to say good job. And he said, really great job, and said, good luck with everything, which just told me, like, we'll never meet again.

GROSS: Right. Yeah.

GLASER: And fair enough, fair enough.

GROSS: Yeah. Yeah.

GLASER: Have a nice life, is another way to say what he said.

GROSS: Yeah. I'll tell you a couple of jokes that I did actually really wince at and kind of found offensive. So tell me what you think.

GLASER: Please.

GROSS: I think I was at the - I forget which roast it was at. But Cybill Shepherd and Martha Stewart were there. And you made jokes about their older woman genitals.

GLASER: Yeah.

GROSS: And I thought, wow, that struck me as, like, really so insulting to women. Do you know that...

GLASER: Yeah.

GROSS: ...That women have less value when they're older and their genitals are older?

GLASER: Yes. I don't disagree with you. And I just think that the rules of roasts - like, no one's exempt from having their genitals talked about because I do it for men, too. So I felt like I will defend it and saying, like, I just don't want to pull any punches. But I will say that I did contribute to that kind of toxic belief that women are disposable as soon as they start aging, which is, like, my biggest concern and fear and resentment of being a woman. And I don't love that I did that, and I think that - you know, it was just - I look back - like I said, like, I don't like watching these roasts, and sometimes I'll come across a clip. And I usually just skip past it because I go, I don't want to relive that. God only knows what I said.

But I watched one recently in preparation for the Tom Brady one. And I just go, what are you doing, girl? Who do you think you are? Who ever told you this was an OK thing to say to someone's face? And I'm glad you didn't quote the jokes to me because I would probably wince as well and be ashamed of what I said. So I definitely - I would like to do more roasts in the future to write those wrongs and be able to make different jokes, like, have parameters for myself and challenge myself to not go to those, quote-unquote "easy" places. But yeah, I'm embarrassed of things I've said to people on those things, and it's hard to relisten and relive it. But I'm sure much harder for them.

GROSS: Do you have to do research when you're preparing a roast so that you know enough about the person's life to know their vulnerabilities and their mistakes?

GLASER: Yeah. And you know, I want to like them. Like, I want to come from a place of, like, love, because if it's just all disdain, it's just going to read that way, and it's not going to be as funny. And I'm the brunt of it, too. Like, I'm on the receiving end of jokes that really hurt my feelings. So I get what it's like. It's not easy.

GROSS: Well, we have to take a short break here. So let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Nikki Glaser. Her latest comedy special, "Someday You'll Die," is streaming on Max. We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF BLANCO SONG, "PULL UP")

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with comic Nikki Glaser. Her latest comedy special, "Someday You'll Die," is streaming on Max. When we left off, we were talking about how she's known for her comedic insults at celebrity roasts, jokes that some people have interpreted as offensive. She gets it, and she mentioned she's been on the receiving end of jokes that really hurt her feelings.

Would you want to tell a joke that really hurt your feelings? Or is that too much to ask of you?

GLASER: Yeah. No. I mean, there was one about - it was Cybill Shepherd at the roast of Bruce Willis, and she said that, I saw Nikki before the show. I walked into the bathroom, and I saw her from behind. And I go, oh my God, look at this model. And then she turned around, and I go, oh, she's a comedian.

GROSS: (Laughter).

GLASER: And that really stung because I have so many insecurities about my face, and it's not good enough, and that's why I'm a comedian because I wish I could just be pretty. It's like that one hurt. And then the laughter that follows including yours just now, is the kicker, as well, where you just go, oh, no. That might be true. Like, and then there was another one - Pete Davidson had one about me having a flat butt. And I was like, oh, no, I always knew that about myself. Now, other people know that I have no butt. And then there was one about me not being funny this time around that kind of stung.

Yeah. And then you just put on a happy face, and then you don't think about it until the car ride home when you're just like, despondently looking out the window, and everyone around you was like, that was so amazing tonight. And you're like, but, like, the thing that Tony Hinchcliffe said, do you, like, think that comes from a real place? And they're like, why are you thinking about that joke that no one's talking about? You had the night of your life. And I mean, I've cried at, I think, two out of the three roast afterparties because of my feelings getting hurt. And then I also - after the roast of Bruce Willis, I got a ton of stuff injected in my face and laser stuff done to fix what Cybill saw.

GROSS: Wow, that is a really heavy reaction to it. That was just, like, a joke.

GLASER: I just go, OK, I finally have confirmation. I've been saying I'm ugly my whole life. Everyone is like, no, you're beautiful. And then Cybill just said I was ugly and the whole room laughed equals it's true. And I'm going to do something about it finally. So I really did. I went and spent that entire paycheck at a med spa and did - you know, I did a laser on my face that they had to strap down my hands because my body would probably try to run to the nearest, like, water source because my body thinks I'm on fire. I had to be, like, held down.

And I was like, what am I doing to myself? And I continued to do those treatments here and there, but I really went all in and pretty crazy right after. And, yeah, I mean, it just - I've been on the receiving end, so I know what it's like. And I do feel bad about the things I've said because I've suffered in the wake of it as well.

GROSS: Can I give you a different interpretation of the Cybill Shepherd joke about you?

GLASER: Yes, please.

GROSS: That models look like models. And you turn around, and you look like a real person. And looking like a real person, in my opinion, is a really good thing...

GLASER: It is.

GROSS: ...Especially when you have fans and fans see you as being important and they look to you as a role model. It's good to look like a real person. I'm not saying models aren't real people, but they're like the visually perfected version of real people.

GLASER: Yes.

GROSS: And very few people can achieve that. And that's OK.

GLASER: Yeah. I really appreciate that interpretation, and that honestly did sink in. And a lot of what people say in response to this kind of opinion I have about myself does not land, and that did, except the part where you said, and that's OK. Because I come from the place of, like, yeah, some people are perfect. And I go, and why am I not? And, you know, in many ways, my life is perfect. But it's just been this struggle. I mean, I've always felt kind of, like, ugly. And I think that's been the thing I struggle with most of my life. And I realize that - I know that I'm a pretty enough girl. But it's like, not as much as I want to be and, man, I wouldn't have to work as hard if I was prettier. And saying to my mom as a young child, like...

GROSS: You might not have been a comic...

GLASER: Yeah, and I'm so glad...

GROSS: ...Because it's your insecurity that gave you your greatest gift.

GLASER: Yes, exactly. And I know that. But sometimes I'm like, I'd give it all up just to - I'd be mute just so I could be gorgeous. You know, I'm always - the comparing and despairing is something I'm well-versed in. But the fact that you said I look like a normal person and that's important because I represent that to young women, that's important for me because that's the reason I think the way I think, is because I grew up looking at perfect people and expecting myself to look that way. And there weren't normal-looking people in magazines for me as a young girl, or at least I didn't see them.

So it's important that I look the way I do, even though I'm going to make tweaks here and there, just to adjust a little bit. I can't stop. But I'm way better than I have been in the past at accepting myself, but it's still a struggle. And I don't feel like vanity is a vapid pursuit. I feel like I'm kind of right sometimes because I look at my industry, and even being a comedian, like, it helps looking attractive. It just does. And I wish it didn't.

GROSS: But you are attractive (laughter).

GLASER: Thank you, thank you. OK.

GROSS: It's not like you turned around and it's like...

GLASER: No, no.

GROSS: ...Oh, no, it's the Hunchback of Notre Dame.

(LAUGHTER)

GLASER: Right. See, that's how I spun that in my head. So thank you for setting me straight on that.

GROSS: Yeah, all right. Nikki Glaser, it's been great talking with you. Thank you so much.

GLASER: Thank you, Terry. This is such an honor. I love you.

GROSS: Oh, thank you so much.

GLASER: I really do. You're incredible.

GROSS: I think you're so funny and so perceptive, so it's just been great talking with you. Thank you.

GLASER: It means the world to me that you feel that way. Thank you.

GROSS: Nikki Glaser's latest comedy special "Someday You'll Die" is streaming on Max. It's nominated for an Emmy in the category Outstanding Variety Special (Pre-Recorded). Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, our guest will be a co-star of the Max series "Hacks," Paul W. Downs. He plays Jimmy, the Hollywood manager to legendary stand-up comedian Deborah Vance. Downs is also the showrunner and just received Emmy nominations for writing and for acting in the series. He already won an Emmy for writing the show's pilot. I hope you'll join us. To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram at @nprfreshair.

(SOUNDBITE OF URI CAINE'S "CHORO MALUCO")

GROSS: FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Ann Marie Baldonado, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Therese Madden, Thea Chaloner, Susan Nyakundi and Joel Wolfram. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.

(SOUNDBITE OF URI CAINE'S "CHORO MALUCO") Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.