Comic Hannah Einbinder on 'Hacks,' cheerleading and laughs as a love language

Transcript

TERRY GROSS, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. My guest Hannah Einbinder is a comic who stars opposite Jean Smart in the HBO and Max series "Hacks." This series is about the personality and generational conflicts, as well as the bonds, between an older comic, played by Smart, and a young comedy writer who works for her, played by Einbinder. Einbinder has been nominated for two Emmy Awards. The show has won six. Einbinder's mother, Laraine Newman, is an important figure in the comedy world. Newman was an original cast member of "Saturday Night Live," and co-founded the improv group the Groundlings. Here's how Einbinder introduces herself in her new comedy special, called "Everything Must Go."

(SOUNDBITE OF COMEDY SPECIAL, "EVERYTHING MUST GO")

HANNAH EINBINDER: My mother had me when she was 42 because before that age, she was busy. See; my mother made the money in our house. She was 12 years older than my father and refused to legally marry him.

(LAUGHTER)

EINBINDER: What does being a woman mean to me? It means being a man.

(LAUGHTER)

GROSS: Einbinder's special touches on some pretty personal topics, which we'll talk about, including the impact of being diagnosed in high school with ADHD - attention deficit hyperactivity disorder - and then smoking marijuana to take the edge off the Adderall and coming out as bisexual. Of course, we'll also talk about working with Jean Smart on "Hacks." "Hacks" has concluded its third season and has been renewed for a fourth.

When the series begins, Jean Smart's character, Deborah, is a veteran Vegas headliner whose star is fading because her jokes have passed their expiration date. Her agent matches her with a young comedy writer, played by Einbinder, who has problems of her own. You can get a sense of the generational differences in this scene. Deborah, with Ava's help, is making a comeback and is in line to be offered the job she's always wanted, hosting a popular late night show. She's about to be given an honorary degree and is at a party on the college campus when she finds out a video has gone viral stringing together some of her jokes from years ago that are now considered insensitive and problematic. Ava is by her side. Jean Smart's character, Deborah, speaks first.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "HACKS")

JEAN SMART: (As Deborah Vance) I can't believe this is happening now.

EINBINDER: (As Ava Daniels) I know. It's really bad timing.

SMART: (As Deborah Vance) I finally get an ounce of relevance. I'm this close, and they just want to take it away from me again.

EINBINDER: (As Ava Daniels) I'm sorry to say this but, I mean, you're not the only victim here.

SMART: (As Deborah Vance) Oh. Oh, really? Who's the other victim - someone who was offended by a joke?

EINBINDER: (As Ava Daniels) Many jokes.

SMART: (As Deborah Vance) I'm sorry. People are too easily offended now. If you don't like a joke, don't laugh.

EINBINDER: (As Ava Daniels) They're not.

SMART: (As Deborah Vance) This is insane. Me - I'm being taken down by a liberal mob - me, who was the first person to be fined by the FCC for saying the word abortion on TV. Why come after me?

EINBINDER: (As Ava Daniels) Hey. Hey. This is not a value judgment on your entire being.

SMART: (As Deborah Vance) Oh, really?

EINBINDER: (As Ava Daniels) They're just upset about some mistakes you made.

SMART: (As Deborah Vance) Jokes I made, jokes that everybody was doing at the time.

EINBINDER: (As Ava Daniels) Yes, and the jokes were hurtful. Both things can be true. You get to be rich and famous from making jokes, and people are allowed to have their reactions to them. I mean, why not use your comedian brain to fight through your defensiveness and think outside of yourself? Isn't that what good comics do? Why don't you just apologize?

GROSS: OK, that scene was set at a fraternity party on the campus. Hannah Einbinder, welcome to FRESH AIR. So what do you think about the idea of canceling people for old jokes that weren't seen as in really bad taste at the time but in retrospect are very problematic?

EINBINDER: You know, I think it is about the way that the comedian responds now, you know? I think if you double down and, like Deborah, refuse to apologize, then you're standing by the remarks you made. And if they are racist or problematic or, you know, whatever they may be in whatever case it is, then that is a problem. And people have the absolute right to, you know, not want to consume your art anymore. And I think a lot of comedians are headstrong personalities who don't want to compromise and whose job is to have an opinion and to stick by it. And their entire work is their own perspective, and so wavering on that and being malleable in that way is not something that comedians are typically willing to do.

GROSS: It's also like, I used to be considered enlightened. I said abortion on TV. That got me into a lot of trouble. And so why does anybody have the right to criticize me now?

EINBINDER: Yeah, I think that's absolutely in part valid. You know, it is important to do what the scene does, which is acknowledge the contribution that Deborah has made to comedy and, you know, that she did break boundaries and cross barriers, and that she did, you know, contribute to a progressive exploration of comedy. And that, of course, directly furthers the culture. You know, in the case of Deborah, she said abortion on TV, and she was fined. And that's, like - you know, that is a progressive and daring and feminist act, I think. But it still doesn't excuse these jokes.

GROSS: In the series "Hacks," your character is kind of canceled in the first episode for a joke that she posted about a closeted senator who sent his son to conversion therapy so that the son could learn to undo his homosexuality. And I'm wondering if you have ever come close to being canceled for a joke that you told that was seen by some group or somebody as being, you know, problematic.

EINBINDER: I have not. I just - that's, like, not the school that I come from. Like, I don't feel - you know, there's this famous George Carlin quote that is, the comedian's job is to find the line and deliberately cross it. And I think that is valuable, but I choose to cross the line in different ways. For me, I choose to cross the line in terms of form and the exploration of the material and the way that the material is presented in terms of format and style. I don't necessarily see, you know, in the case of a lot of these male comedians today, like, clowning on trans people as, like, speaking truth to power. And it's something that I could never even get anywhere near because I just have such a different view on what this art form is. I just really - I could not relate to these men any less, really, honestly.

GROSS: How did you get the part on "Hacks" with no previous acting experience?

EINBINDER: (Laughter).

GROSS: You'd done sketch comedy. You did a great set on the Stephen Colbert show right before the pandemic lockdown. So how did you pull that off?

EINBINDER: Well, yeah. I went in with the rest of the - with all the eligible ladies in the land. I went into a casting office, like, first round, early days on it. And I - you know, what ultimately did it in the end was I added jokes in my audition. Every step of the way, I would add my own jokes.

GROSS: So you punched up the script you were given.

EINBINDER: Yeah, a perfect script that needed no punch-up, might I add. But I did just, you know - 'cause it was so funny. And when something is such a quality piece of work, for me, it's so easy to kind of spitball off of that. So I just loved the material, and I had ideas for it. And so I just added jokes along the way. And I did about three auditions. My first one was, like, several days before the initial COVID lockdown, and then months went by and I did my callback on Zoom. And, again, in that callback, I added several jokes, and I also added that Ava would vape after a punch line. I bought a vape and I hit it in the - I smoked it in the callback.

GROSS: What was the scene that you were given to audition? And did they keep the jokes that you wrote in the actual TV series?

EINBINDER: They did. And the audition scenes were the first scene where we meet my character in her manager Jimmy's office. And she's, you know, on the verge, talking about wanting to jump out the window, and she's just been, you know, canceled, if you will. And then the other scene is the interview scene between Ava and Deborah when they first meet.

GROSS: So can you give an example of a joke you wrote that they kept?

EINBINDER: In the audition scene, the one between Jean and I.

GROSS: And just to set it up, you both have the same agent. It's the son of the person who was originally Jean Smart's agent.

EINBINDER: Yes.

GROSS: The older agent died. His son represents your character and Smart's character. And he kind of finagles things to get you to go to Jean Smart's house to audition, but he never tells Jean Smart that. So he thinks it could get off to a terrible start.

EINBINDER: Yes. I added just some color to the initial interview scene between Ava and Deborah. I added that Ava - the line was that she flew all the way here, and I added, on Spirit.

GROSS: Right. OK. That's fine.

EINBINDER: Airlines.

GROSS: Yeah.

EINBINDER: And I think I...

GROSS: Because you're talking about the effort you went to to get here and now she's just rejecting you without even talking to you yet.

EINBINDER: There was also a line - I said, who's your decorator, Melania Trump? - 'cause she has this very baroque style going on, sort of Versace Palace vibes.

GROSS: (Laughter) Did you learn a lot about acting by working with Jean Smart?

EINBINDER: Oh, yeah.

GROSS: Was it mostly by example or did she give you actual tips?

EINBINDER: It was very much by example. She's really so gifted naturally, and also technically, you know, when it comes to the very, you know, meticulous blocking work and continuity. And, you know, I picked up the pen on this line, things like that. She's very sharp, and she's very on it, and I have tried to absorb as much as I can.

GROSS: Well, let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest as Hannah Einbinder. She has a new comedy special on Max called "Everything Must Go." She also stars with Jean Smart on the streaming series "Hacks," which is a series about the collaboration and the generational differences between a 70-something comic, played by Jean Smart, and a young comedy writer who's writing for the Jean Smart character, played by Hannah Einbinder. We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF AMY WINEHOUSE SONG, "YOU KNOW I'M NO GOOD")

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Hannah Einbinder, who has a new comedy special which is called "Everything Must Go." She is also one of the stars of the streaming TV series "Hacks."

So, you know, your mother is Laraine Newman, one of the original cast members of "Saturday Night Live." When you were growing up, was being funny something that was really prized or rewarded by your parents?

EINBINDER: Certainly, 100%. Yeah. I think it was the main currency in our home. And, you know, my parents are both tough laughs, so I had to do a lot to get what I wanted, you know? I had to do, like, a lot to get a big response from them. And, yeah, it's like a - it is a love language, for sure. And that was definitely my experience growing up.

GROSS: You feel like you learned how to take something really awful that happened to you and tell a funny story about it? Like, turn, like, bad things into comedy?

EINBINDER: Yeah, I mean, I think that might just be a product of being Jewish, but, yeah, it's also...

GROSS: It could be.

EINBINDER: It's also my specific upbringing, for sure. Yeah.

GROSS: You know, you mentioned maybe that's a product of being Jewish. When I was growing up - and I'm closer to your mother's age. When I was growing up, there were, like, so many Jewish comics, and some of them were, like, really pretty sexist and bordering a little on racist. Like the Catskill comics...

EINBINDER: Yes, of course.

GROSS: Jackie Mason...

EINBINDER: Of course.

GROSS: And they were on TV. They were in the Borsch belt and the Catskill Mountains, with the hotels, the resort hotels. You probably missed all of that. And also Mel Brooks, who was hilarious, and was always hilarious.

EINBINDER: Yes, Mel Brooks, Carl Reiner. Those guys are awesome. The 2,000-year-old man stuff was great. I feel they were kind of an exception because while their comedy - especially Mel Brooks, while their comedy was daring and certainly by today's standards, there are certainly things there that you could not do them today - things in "Blazing Saddles," you know. But I would say "The Producers" is a good example of something where Mel Brooks, who is a Jew who's making a movie about Hitler, and it is funny, and it does come from the right side of things. I think that certainly at the time, would have been seen as very progressive, and I love all of those movies.

GROSS: In high school, you were a competitive cheerleader, and you were the captain of your team. What was the most impressive and risky move you did as an individual or as a team?

EINBINDER: Well, I will say that actually, my competitive cheerleading days were before my high school cheerleading days, and those were the days where I was doing more elevated skills. My high school team was certainly, like, moderately skilled, I would say. But high school cheer, especially, you know, in Los Angeles, does not compare to the club sport of competitive cheerleading. So that was definitely when that was, but I would say that, like, the highest skill would be - these words will mean nothing - maybe a bow-and-arrow double-down, which...

GROSS: What is that? I don't know what that is.

EINBINDER: It is when - so a scorpion is where the flyer is in the air on 1 ft and they take their foot that isn't being held and they put it behind their head. And a more extreme version of a scorpion is a bow and arrow, which is where you straighten the leg, so it's as if you're doing the splits in the air standing up and then from there, you - instead of a typical cradle, which would just be where they bend down and throw you up and then you land in their arms, you spin two times in the air before being caught. So that would be...

GROSS: You did that?

EINBINDER: Yes, ma'am.

GROSS: And this was in junior high, before high school.

EINBINDER: This was before high school, yeah. This was - I did competitive cheer, I think, like, 11 to 14.

GROSS: You know, it's funny. Like, when you're in improv groups, you always have to do - my understanding is you always have to do, like, trust exercises. And, you know, like, what's more of a trust exercise than, like, flying through the air and depending on somebody to catch you...

EINBINDER: Oh, my God.

GROSS: ...Like, another 11-year-old to catch you?

EINBINDER: Totally, totally.

GROSS: That sounds terrifying.

EINBINDER: You know, I never really had fear. I think you can't have fear as a cheerleader. But, my God, I mean, the bases - the girls who are underneath who are holding you - I mean, because when you're working on a skill and trying to get it, you're falling a hundred times before you perfect it and before you nail it. So they got to be able to catch you from any angle, from any speed. It's just remarkable. And the trust - it's incredible. You have to have so much trust. And I love a team sport, and I really miss it. And actually, you know, acting and being on "Hacks" feels like a team sport again, you know? Like, I do miss that because stand-up is so isolating. You know, you're just a one-man band kind of.

GROSS: My understanding is that you have, like, joint problems left over from those days.

EINBINDER: Yeah.

GROSS: So can you talk a little bit about that and if you have any, like, regrets about having done the competitive cheerleading? It's kind of like when athletes retire, their bodies are really sore. But they're usually, like, in their 30s or 40s. And...

EINBINDER: Yeah.

GROSS: You were 11.

EINBINDER: Yeah (laughter). Yeah, you know, I mean, I accredit my work ethic and my relentless pursuit of perfection and excellence to cheerleading. I really am the type of person who - and this has been, like, sort of massaged as I have become less punishingly hard on myself, which is a miracle. But I really do attribute my desperate pursuit of perfection and my high personal standard to cheerleading, for better or for worse, because my coaches were really, really intense. And they did not accept anything other than, you know, perfection. And we won every competition we, you know, entered. And it just was so like - I compare cheerleading to being a part of the United States military in the special, and I stand by it. You know, I'm joking, of course, but it's very intense. And if you think - for the listener, if you think of a Russian gymnastics coach, it's kind of that with American nationalism imbued into it, so (singing) scary.

GROSS: (Laughter).

EINBINDER: But, yeah, I don't know that I regret it. I certainly don't feel good. My neck hurts right now. You know, my knees, I'll probably have to have a replacement very young. You know, they crack, it sounds like sand. Sorry, guys. It sounds really bad. And my shoulders, you know - I almost have to, like, reset my kneecap when I'm walking sometimes. I mean, it's really - I'm really withering. But, you know, there was a lot of good that came out of it, and there was no stopping me.

GROSS: You know, in your segment on your special about extreme cheerleading, you joke about how many, you know, lesbians or queer women were involved with competitive cheerleading. And when I was in high school, I thought that a lot of girls became cheerleaders in part because they wanted more of an opportunity to date the male basketball players.

EINBINDER: (Laughter).

GROSS: So I'm wondering about how things have changed since then.

EINBINDER: Well, I will say that my main frustration with my high school team was that, that was the case. I was taking it really seriously, again, coming from that super competitive, strict world. And I think a lot of the girls kind of just wanted to wear the skirt, which I found to be totally degrading and, you know, just, like, totally against my values as a very intense athlete. But, you know, I think, like, there is, like, a sort of thing that I have from talking to other past cheerleaders who are queer now of, like, I wanted to be on the team with all the girls. You know, it's kind of like this thing of like - I don't know that so many cheerleaders are - and I could be wrong, I don't really - I'm not really on the high school scene these days. But, you know, I think it's more of like a thing of, like, many former cheerleaders are now openly queer.

GROSS: Let's take a break here, and if you're just joining us, my guest is Hannah Einbinder. She's one of the stars, along with Jean Smart, of the series "Hacks," which is on HBO and also streaming on Max. And she also has a new comedy special on Max called "Everything Must Go." We'll be right back. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF BRUCE HORNSBY'S "BACKHAND")

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Hannah Einbinder. Her new comedy special, called "Everything Must Go," is streaming on Max. She stars with Jean Smart in the HBO series "Hacks," that's also streaming on Max. It's about the personality and generational differences between an older comic played by Jean Smart and a young comedy writer who works for her, played by Einbinder. It's been renewed for a fourth season.

So something else you talk about in the comedy special is taking Adderall because you were diagnosed with ADHD, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. How old were you?

EINBINDER: When I was diagnosed?

GROSS: Yes.

EINBINDER: I started being medicated - I believe it was my freshman year of high school. So I guess that would be 14 - 13, 14.

GROSS: So, how does the attention deficit fit into working so hard at being a competitive cheerleader? And I can see how hyperactivity would fit into being an athlete. But...

EINBINDER: Yeah.

GROSS: ...It sounds like you were very, very focused...

EINBINDER: Yes.

GROSS: ...Which is the attention deficit way.

EINBINDER: It actually is.

GROSS: It is?

EINBINDER: So yeah. So there is an element of ADHD called hyperfixation. ADHD is very similar to autism in that folks who are neurodivergent who are ADHD have a very hard time focusing on things that they are not incredibly passionate about, and then they become obsessed with niche topics, experiences, activities, et cetera. And it becomes sort of like autism where you just are totally devoted to this one thing and can't think of anything else. And so it's sort of a misconception about ADHD that folks like us can't really focus on anything. It's really that we can only focus on things we're obsessed with.

GROSS: So is that figuring into comedy now?

EINBINDER: Oh, certainly. I would say that comedy was the post-cheerleading hyperfixation that I pursued very intensely.

GROSS: So you took Adderall for six years. How did it make you feel? Like, what was the difference between being on it and off it?

EINBINDER: It made me feel cut off from my soul...

GROSS: That's big.

EINBINDER: ...Sort of. Yeah. Yeah. It was not positive for me, and I do want to just say for folks who do take Adderall who have ADHD, I don't want to invalidate how much it can help people. I really it can help people and a lot of folks function so much better on it, and that is so valid. I did not have that experience, and I know of a lot of folks who also didn't have that experience. I felt kind of numb on it. You know, it kind of dulled my sparkle, if you will. And I was kind of aggro, too, you know?

Like, I - there is one molecular difference between the compound that is Adderall and the compound that is methamphetamine. So just so we're all clear on, like, what the drug is. It does make you or make me, I should say, quick to anger and really unable to access the full spectrum of emotions. That was my experience coming off of it and withdrawing. I cut it out cold turkey in college and was confronted with such intense mood swings and all of these emotions that I had not felt in years. And it was insane, and I put on, you know, maybe 20 pounds, and I started napping, which I never did before. And my sleep was all different and, you know, I'd have occasional, very, very occasional heart palpitations.

And, you know, prolonged use of this drug for me was was not great. And, you know, I had to take it because I was at a public school, and I was not doing well in math and science. And, you know, I always did well in English and history and my AP government class and environmental science and things like that. But it just - it was a tool for me to get by in school. And, you know, when I stopped, I had to deal with a lot of really tough emotions, and I had to readjust to society for sure.

GROSS: Were any of things you had to deal with, the mood swings and intense emotions, was that partly withdrawal, or was that all the things that had been suppressed over the years that you were taking Adderall rising to the surface all at once?

EINBINDER: It would say it would be both. Certainly in the several months of my withdrawal, I was dealing with such such intense feelings, and I really accredit my ability to work through that to my roommate in college, my friend Ellie Nielson (ph). She is my best friend, and she lived with me, and she - sorry, I'm going to cry. She just helped me like, work through, you know, reacclimating, and all of these really deep emotional experiences that I had been cut off from. And I remember it being so hard and I wanted to at times go back, but there was really no way to unsee, you know, what I had seen on the other side. So yeah, I'm very grateful to have a friend like her because, you know, she just helped me through it.

GROSS: Why don't we take a short break here? My guest is Hannah Einbinder. She stars with Jean Smart in the HBO and Max comedy series "Hacks," and she has a new comedy special streaming on Max called "Everything Must Go." We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF AMY RIGBY SONG, "PLAYING PITTSBURGH")

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Hannah Einbinder. Her new comedy special "Everything Must Go" is streaming on Max. She stars with Jean Smart in the HBO series "Hacks, " that's also streaming on Max.

You joke in your special about how you smoked weed to take the edge off the Adderall.

EINBINDER: Yeah.

GROSS: So what was the combination of those two drugs together like for you when you were in high school, which is - you know, it's still - I know a lot of kids smoke weed in high school, but it's still a lot to handle, I think, when you're in high school.

EINBINDER: It's a pretty wicked combo, I will say. I was really a heavy, heavy, heavy, heavy stoner. And, you know, the Adderall made it so that I could keep smoking, and it wouldn't get me as high, which was - I was in for a rude awakening when I tried to smoke weed the way I used to but I stopped taking Adderall. I was just like, whoa, man, I'm tripping out, man, you know? It was...

GROSS: Yeah.

EINBINDER: ...Totally brutal. But I think the Adderall made me super-focused, and the weed trapped me in my head. So I was kind of just, like, spiraling internally. That was kind of the combination. I mean, you know, weed has acted as an upper for me, typically, whereas Adderall was kind of a downer. That's kind of the thing they say where - for folks who don't have ADHD, they take Adderall, and it's like cocaine. And they go crazy, and they're so hyper. And then for those who have ADHD, they take Adderall and it totally makes them really, really, really still and really quiet and kind of in whatever they're doing and brings you down. It sort of has the adverse effect. So that was kind of a strange cocktail. But, yeah, it did kind of bring me back up, ironically, 'cause the Adderall had pulled me down so much.

GROSS: But you said when you smoked weed, you got trapped in your head. Was your head a bad neighborhood at the time?

EINBINDER: Oh, baby, you know it. Oh, yeah - mean streets, OK? Don't walk down those at night, OK? You got to have a little pepper spray on you.

GROSS: So I've had that experience of getting trapped in my head when I first smoked marijuana.

EINBINDER: And when was that?

GROSS: Oh, a long time ago.

EINBINDER: Yeah.

GROSS: I was in college. But I kept smoking in it. I asked myself, well, I'm getting trapped in my head, and it's not good. Why am I smoking it? But then it got a lot better. So why did you continue if it was getting you trapped in your head and that was an unpleasant place to be?

EINBINDER: Well, I actually did eventually stop. I took a large break for maybe eight months to a year. When I came off the Adderall, the weed on its own just was so - it was just dark. And frankly, I think drugs kind of pronounce whatever's going on. So I didn't find that weed was, like, a relief so much as it pronounced my greatest fears.

EINBINDER: So, you know, I was kind of directionless. I was still starting to pursue comedy, but I didn't yet, you know, find stand-up. I was just doing improv in college, and it didn't really help that I felt kind of directionless. And every time I smoked pot, I thought - you know, I had these cyclical thoughts of like, you got to - what are you doing? Like, you're wasting time. You don't know what you're doing with your life. Like, you got to figure it out. This is - you know, this is dumbing you down - all that stuff. So yeah. I think - yeah, I took I took a big break and just kind of tried to focus up and get back on track. And I've done that throughout my life with pot. You know, I walk away for a while, and then I come back. And now it's pretty cash because I feel, like, better in my life that I can, you know, imbibe from time to time. I don't really drink, so...

GROSS: So you said that the ADHD helps you really, like, obsess over whatever it is that you're most passionate about, which is now comedy. But how did you discover comedy for yourself? Like, what was your pathway to thinking, this is what I need to do; this is what I feel passionate about.

EINBINDER: Well - and I've spoken about this. Nicole Byer, a wonderful comedian, came to my college when I was on the improv team, and she asked if any of the kids wanted to open for her. And I volunteered, and that first set was totally life-changing. And I really never looked back. It just felt so good, and, you know, this was at a time in my life where I didn't really feel good. And it was like this eight- to 10-minute relief from the very bad feeling, and I just became obsessed and started to chase that and, you know, did my kind of obsessive thing of, like, memorizing albums, you know, and listening in the car and writing incessantly and going to open mics every night and driving all over the city.

And, you know, so that kind of kicked it off because I did improv. But, again, like, the mental disposition I've described stopped me from being really a good improviser because you have to be able to kind of just be mentally free. And I was so overthinking and so in my head still. Those, you know, deep grooves, those neural pathways had been carved from years of those types of thoughts. So it was very hard for me to do improv, which, actually, now I quite like. I love improvising. We improvise on the set of "Hacks" a lot, and, you know, onstage, I'll go off on a tangent and riff. And it's very fun now, but at the time, I couldn't do it at all.

GROSS: Well, let's take another break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Hannah Einbinder. Her new comedy special is called "Everything Must Go." She also stars with Jean Smart on the streaming series "Hacks." We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF THE VELVET UNDERGROUND SONG, "RIDE INTO THE SUN")

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Hannah Einbinder. She has a new comedy special called "Everything Must Go." It's streaming on Max. She also stars with Jean Smart in the Max series "Hacks", which is about the collaboration and generational differences between a 70-something comic, played by Smart, and a young comedy writer, played by Hannah.

OK, so part of what you talk about in your new comedy special is being bisexual. And I want to play an excerpt of that part of your comedy special. Here it is - Hannah Einbinder.

(SOUNDBITE OF COMEDY SPECIAL, "EVERYTHING MUST GO")

EINBINDER: Bisexuals - everybody wants us, but no one wants us. The straights don't claim us. The queers certainly don't claim us. Hey, lesbians. What did we ever do to you besides lead you on and break your heart? Why are you mad, I wonder?

(LAUGHTER)

EINBINDER: How else can I say this? Bisexuals are the Jews of the LGBTQIA+ community. Is that tracking? Everyone's like, ah, bisexuals - they're just shape-shifting maniacal villains. They're not one of us. Ring a bell, Jews?

GROSS: That's so funny.

EINBINDER: Thanks.

GROSS: So do you still feel that way, that bisexuals, even though they're the B in LGBTQ+IA - that even though they're the B and are officially recognized, that they're still estranged from the community? - because people used to think - I don't think that's as true now - that if you're bisexual, you're just afraid of committing to one team or the other.

EINBINDER: You know what? I think some people still think that. I think there's a lot of, you know, that stuff that's still pretty ingrained. I think that people in general are fearful of identities that are not binary. I think we as people really like for red to mean stop and green to mean go. And it challenges certain individuals' world view and understanding of themselves and others when they are confronted with someone who is secure in the middle, secure with gray, you know, in a world that tries very desperately to be black and white.

GROSS: I also think that, like, people are so accustomed to thinking of things as being on a spectrum, especially for, like, neuroatypical...

EINBINDER: Yeah. Right.

GROSS: ...People. But when it comes to sexuality, it sometimes, well, you have to fit into one of the categories.

EINBINDER: Yeah, that has been my experience. And, you know, it used to really destroy me. I used to be so susceptible to any biphobia, I would experience and again, again, but I would like to just say that in the grand scheme of oppression on the totem pole within the queer community, I hope I'm not misinterpreted as placing, you know, back-handed comments above, in any way, the very real violence that a lot of members of the queer community face. I just want to clarify that.

GROSS: Understood.

EINBINDER: Yeah. And, you know, to my point in the special, it does typically come more so from members of the community, ironically. That's been my experience, at least, mostly, my experiences with biphobia do not come from straight people. But it's OK.

GROSS: Do you feel like parts of your personality change when you're in a relationship with a man versus with a woman? And more specifically, do you find yourself ever unintentionally and against your will, falling more into conventional gender roles when you're in a relationship with a man?

EINBINDER: You know, I definitely think I am different in relationships with men versus women, and I think when I'm with a man, I'm actually so violently resisting those traditional gender roles. But I typically tend to date men who are - I guess you could call them feminine. I mean, I definitely feel like when I date men, I wear the pants. So I guess that's this. I'm Mommy's girl. Yeah, I think that's kind of how I operate, you know, because my mom was 12 years my father's senior, and, you know, in many ways, my dad is a highly emotional guy, which is a wonderful thing. Dad, don't be sensitive here. That's not a bad thing. It's nice that you're sensitive. I think, you know, my ideas of gender roles have been totally flipped from jump. You know, my view on what it means to be a woman is sort of contrary to the popular notion.

GROSS: It's like you say in the opening bit on your comedy special, which we excerpted at the beginning of the show, that your idea of a woman is a man.

EINBINDER: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Exactly.

GROSS: So, your father's mother was a lesbian, and he was raised mostly by two women. Did you meet your grandmother?

EINBINDER: I did. Yeah.

GROSS: Did she talk with you about what it was like to come out, I think, a 1962?

EINBINDER: You know what? She did. But she was someone who really, like, you know, and she's someone from this generation of, like, oh, it was fine. You know?

GROSS: Right, yeah.

EINBINDER: Sure, she had experienced a lot of really terrible things, but she didn't know to necessarily deem them as such. I think a lot of those women are tough from that generation, especially queer women, My God. And, you know, their stories are very rarely heard. And I feel very lucky to have been, you know, able to talk with her about it.

But yeah, she certainly - you know, from my dad's telling, you know, it was tough. Her family really did not embrace her. And, you know, it was this very tight-knit Jewish community in Philly. And, you know...

GROSS: In Philly?

EINBINDER: Yeah. Yeah. My dad's from Philly. I'm a big Eagles fan. Go Birds.

GROSS: Philadelphia is where our show is based.

EINBINDER: I know. And she just kind of, you know, like I detail on the special, she left Philly and set out for California and kind of started over. And, you know, she had the love of her brother, but I think there were a lot of folks who, you know, just couldn't - especially the women, you know, around. They just could not tolerate someone violating order in that way.

GROSS: What will the neighbors think?

EINBINDER: No, exactly. Oh, my God. It's like, you know, she was such a black sheep in that way. But, you know, like I said, I'm so proud to be a descendant of the great Edna Swerdloff.

GROSS: Did it make it any easier for you to, you know, come out as bisexual because of your grandma and knowing that she was a lesbian? That was perfectly acceptable in your family. And she's your father's mother.

EINBINDER: Yeah. Well, I feel so lucky to be raised by a liberal Jewish Los Angeleno family. I got really lucky in that way. And, yeah, my dad's mom being gay certainly made it far more acceptable, you know, for me to feel safe to come out as queer. And my older sibling is trans, and my stepsister is trans as well, and so, we come from a very queer family, and everybody's really cool.

GROSS: Do you ever wonder about that? Like, if there is a kind of, like, genetic basis for gender? That's a funny question to ask 'cause obviously, gender is based on genetics. But, I mean...

EINBINDER: I know what you mean.

GROSS: Yeah. But that there's something, like, inheritable about being queer?

EINBINDER: I mean, I always wonder, and I certainly think if you know - you know, it's funny. I know so many siblings who are both queer.

GROSS: Yes. I do, too.

EINBINDER: Like, I - so many of my friends are two queer kids in a family. Like, I would not dare make any official scientific claims, but I definitely have wondered about that. And in the case of my family, it's certainly in the water, you know?

GROSS: So, I want to ask you about Judaism, because it's mentioned several times in your comedy special. And, I mean, obviously, your parents are Jewish. To what extent were you raised with, like, Jewish customs and rituals and Judaism beyond the high holy days?

EINBINDER: I come from a Reformed background. I went to Temple Isaiah in Los Angeles. It's a very liberal, cool, inclusive temple. You know, I went to a schul with a lady rabbi, gay cantor. The head of the temple was a woman, a Latina woman. And so, yeah, like, my view of Judaism is a very colorful, vivid, diverse, accepting rendition, if you will. It was always a really positive place for me - Judaism. I love the way that I have gotten to experience it, and I had a really wonderful experience of it.

GROSS: Does being Jewish influence your sense of, like, the meaning of life? You know, like, what is larger than yourself? What is...

EINBINDER: Yes.

GROSS: What is happening in the universe?

EINBINDER: I love this. I love this question. Yeah. I mean, you know, because we do not have heaven and hell in Judaism, the main takeaway from that for me is that heaven is Earth, you know? We are here for one short amount of time? And tikkun olam, we have to heal the Earth, you know - l'dor vador, from generation to generation. It's, like, all of these really beautiful values that are Jewish do affect my life and how I live it, and what I am grateful for and what I place importance upon, and my view as a lover of the natural world is, to me, very Jewish, you know, like, really taking care of the Earth and trying to be conscious of my time here. It does feel tied to Judaism.

GROSS: So I want to close with the music that you open and close your comedy special with 'cause I really like the song, and it's called "J'ai Du L'oublier." It's a French song, which translates to, I have forgotten, or, I must have forgotten. And it's by somebody I never heard of, Manou Roblin.

EINBINDER: Roblin.

GROSS: Roblin. Hannah Einbinder, thank you so much for coming on our show. It's been a pleasure to talk with you. I wish you much more success 'cause I'd like to see more of you.

EINBINDER: Thank you so much, Terry. I appreciate you.

GROSS: Yeah, no, I appreciate you. And so Hannah Einbinder's new comedy special on Max is called "Everything Must Go." And she stars with Jean Smart in the series "Hacks," which originates on HBO, and also can be streamed on Max.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "J'AI DU L'OUBLIER")

MANOU ROBLIN: (Singing in French).

GROSS: That's the song "J'ai Du L'oublier," which opens and closes Hannah Einbinder's new comedy special, "Everything Must Go." It's streaming on Max. Einbinder stars with Jean Smart in the series "Hacks," which is also streaming on Max. Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, our guest will be one of the most admired and vilified men in America, Dr. Anthony Fauci. In a new memoir, he reflects on decades of managing public health crises from AIDS to anthrax to ebola, and fighting the COVID pandemic during the Trump presidency, including receiving profanity-laced tongue-lashings from Trump. I hope you'll join us.

FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audi Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Ann Marie Baldonado, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Thea Chaloner, Susan Nyakundi, and Joel Wolfram. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.

(SOUNDBITE OF BRAD MEHLDAU TRIO'S "GREAT DAY") Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.