Ever since Kamala Harris appeared on the political stage, first in California, then nationally, there's been a debate about her criminal justice philosophy. Is she tough on crime or a reformer? It's an either/or that she's long resisted.

"We protest, 'build more schools, less jails!'" she said at the Chicago Ideas conference in 2013, "I agree with that, conceptually. But you have not addressed why I have three padlocks on my front door!"

At the time, she positioned herself as "smart on crime," also the title of a book she published in 2009. She wanted to reform the system to reduce recidivism and incarceration, but the policy also had to include "a broad consensus that there should be serious and severe and swift consequence to crime."

Niki Solis, a long-time deputy public defender in San Francisco, recalls Harris' 2003 challenge of the incumbent district attorney, Terence Hallinan. Solis says she liked Hallinan, but that some voters had come to perceive him as "too liberal."

"[Harris] came in to correct that," Solis says. "It was a law-and-order approach, without a doubt."

Solis says Harris supported pre-existing reforms and programs, but sought to tighten them up. The example she gives is San Francisco's Collaborative Courts program, which offers defendants pre-trial diversion to alternatives such as drug treatment. Solis says the Harris D.A.'s office continued working with that program, but restricted eligibility. People charged with crimes such as elder abuse or sexual exploitation of a child would not qualify.

For Harris, innovation in criminal justice comes with a "high assumption of risk." In that 2013 talk, she said authorities always have to worry that a criminal who's been diverted away from traditional punishment will then "go out tomorrow and kill a baby and a grandmother, and then everyone will look at us."

Despite those risks, Solis says Harris looked for ways to reform the system, especially for more vulnerable populations. For instance, Harris ended the practice of bringing prostitution charges against underage girls.

"She had a whole new policy of treating children who are trafficked as victims rather than as criminals," Solis says.

Harris also stuck to a campaign promise not to seek the death penalty — even when her office brought charges against a man who killed an on-duty police officer named Isaac Espinoza in 2004.

"The rank and file police officers were furious," says John Burke, a retired San Francisco police lieutenant who had worked out of the same station as the murdered cop. He says the death penalty was still considered standard practice in cases such as that, and the criticism of Harris was intense.

"Diane Feinstein, then a senator representing California, went at Kamala Harris," Burke says. "At Isaac Espinoza's funeral. This is a cop funeral, at St Mary's cathedral, I'm certain there were a thousand people inside," he says. "And the cops loved [Feinstein] for that."

But the police's bitterness toward Harris didn't last. Burke was in a gang squad doing drug cases at the time, and he says he had no trouble getting the Harris D.A.'s office to file charges — something police liked.

"I didn't see any real problems when I presented cases. If you had the evidence, they charged the case," he says.

"She was just viewed as being very pro-law enforcement," says Steven Greenhut, with the free market think tank the R Street Institute. As a columnist for the Orange County Register, he started following Harris once she was elected California Attorney General, in 2010.

"She backed expanded asset forfeiture, where police confiscate property even if the owner wasn't convicted of a crime," he says. He also points to Attorney General Harris' dogged efforts to defend criminal convictions attained by local D.A.'s. In one such legal battle on a case apparently tainted by official misconduct, a panel of federal judges sternly criticized the Attorney General's office for its intransigence.

Harris was also criticized by activists and politicians on the left for not using the A.G.'s office to weigh in on police shootings. She was reluctant to pull rank on local prosecutors, and she didn't support legislation that would have mandated fatal police shootings be investigated by the state's Department of Justice.

But there are also activists who look back with approval on Harris' record as attorney general.

"She was steadfast in both wearing the hat of someone who has extensive law enforcement experience as well as wearing the hat of someone with extensive civil rights experience," says Lenore Anderson, president and co-founder of Alliance for Safety and Justice. She also worked for Harris in the San Francisco D.A.'s office. Anderson points to Harris' pursuit of banks in the aftermath of the 2008 mortgage crisis.

"Getting money back in the hands of homeowners who were at risk of losing their homes," Anderson says. "Those are the kinds of things that you want to see from your chief law enforcement officer in your state."

And reformers point to other initiatives by Harris during those years, such as the creation of OpenJustice, a web portal where the public can more easily view crime and policing statistics.

In 2019, then-Sen. Harris prepared for a run for the presidency and published another book, The Truths We Hold, in which she referred to herself as a "progressive prosecutor."

In 2020, when thousands of people protested the murder of George Floyd, Harris appeared to embrace their cause. "This is a movement. I'm telling you. They're not going to stop," she said in an interview on CBS's The Late Show. ""They're not going to let up. And they should not. And we should not."

Harris also tweeted out a call for people to donate to a bail fund for the protesters in Minnesota.

But four years later, the Harris campaign deflects questions about her support for the protests. And, given the recent voter backlash against self-avowed "progressive prosecutors" in San Francisco and Portland, Ore., the campaign also avoids referring to her as having been a "progressive prosecutor."

Instead, in a statement to NPR, it refers to her as a "pragmatic prosecutor."

“During her career in law enforcement, Kamala Harris was a pragmatic prosecutor who successfully took on predators, fraudsters, and cheaters like Donald Trump.”

The campaign's apparent hope is that in 2024, the tough-on-crime image is the one that wins elections.

Copyright 2024 NPR

Transcript

MICHEL MARTIN, HOST:

Just over two decades ago, Kamala Harris launched her political career by running for a district attorney of San Francisco. The vice president, and likely Democratic presidential nominee, has been associated with law enforcement ever since, but not always to her advantage. NPR's Martin Kaste reports.

MARTIN KASTE, BYLINE: What kind of prosecutor was Kamala Harris, the progressive kind or the tough-on-crime kind? She's always resisted that either/or categorization. Here she is talking criminal justice reform in 2013 at the Chicago Ideas conference.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)

KAMALA HARRIS: We run around with these signs - build more schools, less jails. Put money into education, not prisons. There's a fundamental problem with that approach, in my opinion. And it's this. I agree with that conceptually, but you have not addressed the reason I have three padlocks on my front door.

KASTE: That ambiguity was apparent from the start, according to the people who knew her as a prosecutor in San Francisco. Niki Solis, for instance. She still remembers watching Harris in court.

NIKI SOLIS: I've got to say she blew me away, so much so that I did something that I never do - is I went up to her and I said, that was an amazing closing argument.

KASTE: Solis doesn't usually compliment prosecutors because she's on the other side, the public defender's office. And she liked the DA that Harris successfully challenged in her first election in 2003, a DA that others saw as too liberal.

SOLIS: She came in to correct that. It was a law and order approach, without a doubt.

KASTE: Solis says Harris balanced her law and order tendencies with progressive reforms. For instance, Harris supported pretrial diversion, that is offering criminal defendants alternatives to trial, such as drug treatment, but not for people who committed certain kinds of crimes, such as elder abuse or sexual exploitation. Solis says Harris also introduced new reforms, such as no longer bringing prostitution charges against underage girls.

SOLIS: She had a whole new policy of treating children who were trafficked as victims rather than as criminals.

KASTE: As a candidate, Harris had pledged not to bring death penalty cases, a promise she kept, even when charging a cop killer just a few months into her first term.

JOHN BURKE: The rank-and-file police officers were furious, you know?

KASTE: That's John Burke, a recently retired San Francisco police lieutenant. He recalls how, after she announced she wouldn't seek the death penalty, she was lambasted by Senator Dianne Feinstein at the murdered officer's funeral.

BURKE: This is a cop funeral at St. Mary's Cathedral. There were - I'm certain there were a thousand people inside that funeral procession. And the cops loved her for that.

KASTE: Meaning they loved Feinstein for going after Harris. But the bitterness toward Harris didn't last. Burke was in a gang squad doing drug cases at the time, and he says he had no trouble getting the Harris DA's office to file charges on his cases, and police generally like that. Steven Greenhut is with the free market think tank R Street Institute.

STEVEN GREENHUT: She was just viewed as being very pro-law enforcement.

KASTE: He followed Harris closely once she was elected California attorney general in 2010.

GREENHUT: She fought the release of a man the Innocence Project found not to have been guilty. She backed expanded asset forfeiture, you know, where police confiscate property even if the owner wasn't convicted of a crime.

KASTE: And perhaps most frustrating to activists on the left, as attorney general, Harris refused to intervene in local investigations of police shootings. On the other hand, as AG, Harris created reentry programs for drug offenders leaving prison. She supported expanding the right to vote for felons, and she improved the public's access to crime and policing statistics. In 2020, when thousands of people protested the murder of George Floyd, then-Senator Harris appeared to embrace their cause.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)

HARRIS: This is a movement. I'm telling you, they're not going to stop.

KASTE: Here she is that year on "The Late Show."

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "THE LATE SHOW WITH STEPHEN COLBERT")

HARRIS: The should not, and we should not.

KASTE: Harris also tweeted out a call for people to donate to a bail fund for the protesters in Minnesota. But four years on, her campaign is not talking about that, and it doesn't refer to her as, quote, "a progressive prosecutor." Instead, in a statement to NPR, it refers to her as a pragmatic prosecutor. And Harris is reminding people that as a DA and an AG, she was a law enforcer.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)

HARRIS: In those roles, I took on perpetrators of all kinds.

KASTE: This is her speech at campaign headquarters earlier this week.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)

HARRIS: Fraudsters who ripped off consumers, cheaters who broke the rules for their own gain. So hear me when I say I know Donald Trump's type.

(CHEERING)

KASTE: The campaign's apparent hope is that in 2024, the tough-on-crime image is the one that wins elections.

Martin Kaste, NPR News. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.

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