From 'Freaks and Geeks' to 'Barbie,' this casting director decides who gets on-screen

Transcript

TERRY GROSS, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. The movies "Barbie," "Lady Bird," "The 40-Year-Old Virgin," "Superbad," "Knocked Up," "Talladega Nights," "Step Brothers," "Borat" and "Bridesmaids;" and the TV shows "Veep," "Parks And Recreation," "The Office," "The Good Place," "Curb Your Enthusiasm," "Freaks And Geeks," "The Fresh Prince Of Bel Air" - all these shows and movies have one person in common, someone who was instrumental in creating their personalities. Unless you're in the industry, you probably don't know her name. It's Allison Jones, a casting director credited with finding the actors who helped usher in a new era of TV and movie comedies, working with directors like Judd Apatow, Paul Feig and Adam McKay.

She likes casting people who look like real people and aren't necessarily gorgeous, handsome and hot, but are truly funny. In a New Yorker profile back in 2015, headlined "The Nerd Hunter," she was described as reshaping comedy one misfit at a time. In just one show, "Freaks And Geeks," she cast the then-unknown Seth Rogen, Jason Segel, Lizzy Caplan, Linda Cardellini and James Franco. Her favorite job was "Family Ties." It was her first job working as a casting assistant. Allison Jones, welcome to FRESH AIR. What a pleasure to have you on the show. You cast so many people who I love in so many films and TV shows I love. What amazing career and life you've had so far.

ALLISON JONES: Oh, thank you so much.

GROSS: I just want to start by saying you're not in SAG-AFTRA. You're not in the Writers Guild. You're not on strike, so it's OK for you to be here, but the actors you work with are on strike. What has your life been like during the strike?

JONES: Pretty quiet.

GROSS: Yeah.

JONES: I've been idle. I honk in unison with all the people driving by the strikers over at Paramount especially, and Netflix. But it's unsettling. And I think I'm getting a little concerned about work coming back hopefully soon.

GROSS: You're credited with being a key figure in casting people for what was then a new era of comedy, TV shows without laugh tracks, TV shows with more nerdy characters, casting actors who aren't hot - who aren't necessarily hot.

JONES: (Laughter) Yes.

GROSS: You know, some of them were hot.

JONES: Yes.

GROSS: But, you know, you cast...

JONES: Not always, yeah.

GROSS: ...People who look like real people, and "Freaks And Geeks" is a great example. How did your approach on that show - because that's one of the early shows that you did that was a new era of comedy. How did your approach on that show compare to how things were typically done in the past?

JONES: Well, I had - prior to "Freaks And Geeks" coming along, I had done a pilot called "Roswell High" at the time, and then I think the show became "Roswell." And that is where we had to have the best-looking people in the world that we could get, who were older to play younger. And, you know, I recall testing Heath Ledger for that. And the studio people said he wasn't good-looking or hot enough, which, of course, is insane.

GROSS: Yeah.

JONES: And at the age of 19. So Paul and Judd instantly said, none of that. We just want kids who look like they're in high school. They can be tiny. They can be, you know, funky-looking. They can be whatever, but we don't want the beautiful kids. And from the get-go, I think I got that. So pretty much, I brought in - I don't want to say reject, but all the kids that weren't accepted by the show "Roswell High," which I had done prior to that, or a show called "1973," which was a pilot not picked up by Universal Television, where I had met people like Ben Foster and Jason Segel and James Franco and these kids who were so great, still maybe 18 or 19 or 17, that would not have gotten by the studio standards of great-looking high school kid. That was No. 1 - none of that. So I loved it, I loved it (laughter). Yeah.

GROSS: So tell me what you saw in Jason Segel.

JONES: First of all, he was a really good actor for someone...

GROSS: I love Jason Segel. Let me preface it with that.

JONES: Oh, he's the best.

GROSS: Yeah.

JONES: And he came in. And I think he was a senior at Harvard-Westlake and just a really, really good actor. And so I brought him in a few times. And what I liked about him was his approachability. And he had a great sense of humor. Also, in comedy, you have to read so many people to find the people who are genuinely funny.

GROSS: More than dramatic actors? And if so, why?

JONES: Well, I think it's just sort of a different - I got to say, comedy is harder (laughter), I think, to write, to act, to be funny even in real life, so - especially when they're younger. And "Freaks And Geeks" was a different kind of show. It was - well, it was an hour, what we would then have called single camera, as opposed to multi-cam, which was the half-hour sitcom where it was a completely different kind of delivering of jokes. It was jokey. Single camera was, like, doing nothing. My direction for all the single camera stuff was do less, do less, do less.

And comedy, I think, is just harder because comedy actors doing drama is a more likely scenario than dramatic actors doing the kind of comedy I've often had to look for. And also, the comedy shows have evolved since people like Judd Apatow and Paul Feig came on board because they were willing to have actors improvise, Adam McKay as well. Mitch Hurwitz, all these comedy great people - Christopher Guest - want these people to bring their comedy talents to the scene, as opposed to when I was working in sitcoms. Everything was heavily written. And if an actor went off of a line and didn't say the line as written, it was like, whoa, that person doesn't know what they're doing.

GROSS: Let's talk a little bit about casting "The Office." Let's start with Steve Carell. He is so perfect in the role.

JONES: (Laughter) Oh, God, yes.

GROSS: And, you know, because it's a mockumentary...

JONES: Yeah.

GROSS: Some things you had to cast four must have included being able to kind of confide in the documentary camera.

JONES: Oh, yeah.

GROSS: And then also, being able to have these cringey looks on your faces. Not so much Steve Carell, but all the other characters were constantly cringing because Steve Carell is the boss of Dunder Mifflin. Was - he was a cringe machine. I mean, everything he said was cringeworthy.

JONES: (Laughter).

GROSS: But for Steve Carell himself, he had to have this naive confidence that everything he was saying was, like, really smart and really productive, although what he was saying was typically somewhere between dumb and really offensive. But he'd never really know it was offensive. So how do you audition somebody for those traits?

JONES: Well, again, first of all, it starts with the writing. And as I recall, with the pilot of "The Office," I think the mandate was pretty much to make it, like, the pilot of the British show, as I recall. So even in casting, I was cognizant of what the British sort of prototypes were. Though, it is a way that these actors have of speaking without even thinking they're acting. And also, I had seen Steve be funny in so many things and had auditioned him thanks to Marla Garlin and Jeff Garlin, who sent me all the great Second City people at the time and should be credited with all of that. I think, just what makes me laugh, and he's - I don't know what to say. He's brilliant. He's brilliantly funny. And if they sort of got the vibe without too much acting or overacting or trying to hit the joke, which is what you did have to do in multi-camera shows like "Family Ties" and "Benson" and even "Golden Girls."

GROSS: All shows that you've worked on.

JONES: That I was an assistant on, yeah. Interesting about Steve Carell - his character was really over the top, but he knew how to do it in a very realistic way. And those two thoughts are hard to find together. But as they all did, we had a - two days of testing for that show. And we had a lot of people up for the role of Michael Scott. And, you know, I've said before, the two people it came down to were Bob Odenkirk and Steve Carell, both of whom understood this comedy in their DNA, I believe, and especially Bob Odenkirk, who I think many, many current comedy writers and actors owe a huge debt to because of "Mr. Show." That would be David Cross and Bob Odenkirk.

GROSS: Steve Carell - you must have known him from "The Daily Show," too.

JONES: Oh, yes. "The Daily Show" was a huge source of comedy people, including Jon Stewart himself. I used to audition Jon Stewart all the time.

GROSS: Oh, really?

JONES: Oh, yeah.

GROSS: Did you ever give him a role in a movie?

JONES: I didn't. And I tried very hard, but it didn't pan out. A little anecdote - I swear to God. I think Jeff Garlin used to rent a studio apartment in New York City, and it would be like a roving one-bedroom place for comics to stay. And once I called there for Jeff Garlin or somebody, and Jon Stewart picked up. And I believe he said, hey; I'm a comic, too. You should listen to me. I'm really funny. But, yes, I used to audition him a lot.

GROSS: Is that how you first auditioned him?

JONES: Oh, yeah, for sure. Yeah. I think I knew he was a comic at the time as well. We auditioned him for a show called "Flying Blind," which was on the air for a season, I believe.

GROSS: One of the people you cast on "The Office" was an associate from your own casting office...

JONES: Oh, yes.

GROSS: ...Phyllis Smith, who played...

JONES: Yes.

GROSS: ...Phyllis...

JONES: Yes.

GROSS: ...On the show. So I want you to describe Phyllis. I'll start by saying she was somebody who was kind of an outsider in the office. She wasn't one of the hip people. She was one of the uncool people. She was middle-aged. She was kind of frumpy. You want to take it from there in describing her?

JONES: Yeah, she was all of those things, yes, as the character. And I think, yeah, she worked as my associate for six or seven years, and she'd been in casting for about 20 years. And when we were casting the pilot of the office over at Universal, the gifted director, Ken Kwapis, said to me, let Phyllis read with some of these actors because I want to see how she sounds. I think she'd be great in the background. So I said, great. We were jumping up and down. So Phyllis read with the actors. She was terrific. Ken Kwapis - meaning you couldn't tell she was acting - nothing. She was just Phyllis, which is what we were looking for for all the background people in the office.

And she got hired to do, you know, one - I think one day or so for the pilot of "The Office." And Greg Daniels generously called her Phyllis. I think she had one or two lines. And, again, Phyllis and I were jumping up and down because she was going to get paid 650 bucks for the day or something. And that was huge back then. And the rest is history with Phyllis. She came back to work for me in casting. The show got picked up. I think she still worked for me for the first five episodes or so, but then it was picked up for more episodes, and she was able to be a regular on the show.

GROSS: Right. So one of the things Phyllis does is she speaks in cliches and platitudes. So I want to play a scene.

JONES: (Laughter).

GROSS: It's raining hard outside. And Jim, John Krasinski, points out, like, how many cliches she has about rain. And she - and he says, like, if she says 12 cliches about rain before noon, I'm going to buy - before noon, I'm going to buy everybody a hot chocolate. So Phyllis comes in from out of the rain, and here's how it starts.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "THE OFFICE")

PHYLLIS SMITH: (As Phyllis Lapin-Vance) Wow. It is raining cats and dogs out there. Holy moly.

JOHN KRASINSKI: (As Jim Halpert) Phyllis says the same 12 cliches every time it rains. So I promised everyone that if she says them all by noon today, I will send out for hot chocolates.

CRAIG ROBINSON: (As Darryl Philbin) So how was the drive in?

SMITH: (As Phyllis Lapin-Vance) Nobody knows how to drive in the rain.

ROBINSON: (As Darryl Philbin) You don't say.

SMITH: (As Phyllis Lapin-Vance) Yeah. You know, the roads are actually the slickest in the first half-hour. I think it's the oil that comes to the surface.

ROBINSON: (As Darryl Philbin) I agree.

SMITH: (As Phyllis Lapin-Vance) Oh, the plants are going to love this.

OSCAR NUNEZ: (As Oscar Martinez) Yeah.

SMITH: (As Phyllis Lapin-Vance) I actually sleep better when it's raining.

KATE FLANNERY: (As Meredith Palmer) Tell me about it.

NUNEZ: (As Oscar Martinez) Time's almost up. How many are left?

JENNA FISCHER: (As Pam Beesly) Just one. This weather makes me want to stay at home, curled up with a good book.

ROBINSON: (As Darryl Philbin) Phyllis, this rain - does it make you want to be doing something?

SMITH: (As Phyllis Lapin-Vance) What do you mean?

FISCHER: (As Pam Beesly) You know, like, aren't some things just so nice and cozy in the rain?

KRASINSKI: (As Jim Halpert) Hey. Come on.

SMITH: (As Phyllis Lapin-Vance) Lots of things are cozy in the rain.

KRASINSKI: (As Jim Halpert) And that's noon exactly. Sorry about that, everybody. Hey, Phyllis. Would you like a hot chocolate?

SMITH: (As Phyllis Lapin-Vance) Oh, I'd love one.

KRASINSKI: (As Jim Halpert) I'm going out to get two hot chocolates.

SMITH: (As Phyllis Lapin-Vance) I mean, normally the rain would make me want to stay at home, curled up with a good book. But everybody's being so nice to me today. I'm really happy being here.

GROSS: So...

JONES: (Laughter).

GROSS: She says that, like, 12th cliche after noon. So he's just buying a hot chocolate...

JONES: Right.

GROSS: ...For himself and for Phyllis.

JONES: Oh, God.

GROSS: That's a great scene. So she was, like, your coworker. She worked in your office. She worked for you. What would it have been like for you if she got the part and then wasn't very good at it? Like, would that have broken your heart?

JONES: Yes, I would have felt awful.

GROSS: Because she was great. She was perfect in it.

JONES: Yeah, she was perfect - I think also because it was organic. They liked Phyllis first before the character. So I think, yeah, she was great. And also, she pulled it off. I had no idea if that would happen. It would have been - yes, I would have felt awful.

GROSS: Did you think of her as somebody who was naturally funny? - because that's something that you always looked for.

JONES: No.

GROSS: (Laughter).

JONES: In a word, no, but very, very guileless and very appealing, sort of like a junior high math teacher or something - somebody who you would see every day but not really notice or pay much attention to. And, no, I would not think of Phyllis as naturally funny, no. But, boy, she got it.

GROSS: So, like, on "The Office" with Pam and Jim, they just seemed like such a natural couple. And then when...

JONES: Yes.

GROSS: ...John Krasinski, who plays Jim, married Emily Blunt, I thought, I don't know. I don't know. I think - it's, like, Jim and Pam. I don't know...

JONES: Yes. Right.

GROSS: ...If these two go together.

JONES: Exactly (laughter).

GROSS: How do you feel when someone like me reacts that way?

JONES: I think it's fantastic.

GROSS: The casting was so good that I couldn't imagine either of them with anybody else.

JONES: Yes, exactly. No, I appreciate that. Thank you, Terry.

GROSS: Oh, you're welcome.

(LAUGHTER)

GROSS: So did you have to cast for cringy expressions, like who's got the best, funniest, cringy expressions?

JONES: No, but if they threw one in, I would certainly remember it. A lot of them were smart enough when they auditioned to sort of glance at the camera occasionally, again, thanks to the British "Office." But that kind of blew me away that they were smart enough to do that in their auditions. And, again, it was, I believe, the very first comedy that I worked on where we did the auditions on tape and sent them to the network to look at that way because the show was so understated. And it wasn't a one, two, three, you know, punchline kind of a show. You couldn't go into a room and speak loudly enough to project to 12 or 15 faces staring at you and make it seem like you were going to be good on the show of The Office. Basically on "The Office," you're just talking basically above a mumble. And that would be very hard just technically...

GROSS: Oh, yeah.

JONES: ...To even convey. Yes. When you wanted to see these people, you wanted to see them being real people and talking to the camera or glancing at the camera. So we had two days of sort of screen testing and mixing and matching actors for all the roles, some of whom now are very famous (laughter) people who would come in. And it was a blast doing it at the time because we got to actually sit there and witness the different combinations of the actors.

GROSS: We need to take a short break here, so let's take a pause. If you're just joining us, my guest is casting director Allison Jones. Her latest movie is "Barbie." We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF GOLDENBOY SONG, "KITTENS OF LUST")

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with casting director Allison Jones. The movies and TV shows she's cast include "Barbie," "Lady Bird," "The 40-Year-Old Virgin," "Superbad," "Knocked Up," "Talladega Nights," "Step Brothers," "Borat" and "Bridesmaids;" and the TV shows "Veep," "The Office," "Curb Your Enthusiasm," "Freaks And Geeks." And her first job was assistant casting director on "Family Ties."

So let's talk a little bit about casting "Barbie."

JONES: OK.

GROSS: Now, you didn't cast Margot Robbie because...

JONES: Did not.

GROSS: She's the one who brought the movie to Greta Gerwig, the director and co-writer. And Margot Robbie is, you know, a producer of the film. And I think you also didn't cast Ryan Gosling because the part was written for him, but you basically cast everyone else.

JONES: We did, and I worked with Lucy Bevan in the U.K. She was the co-casting director of that.

GROSS: You cast "Barbie" during the COVID lockdown.

JONES: Oh, yes.

GROSS: So people kind of had to send you...

JONES: Yes, yes, yeah.

GROSS: ...Tapes of themselves, as opposed to coming in and auditioning for you.

JONES: Yes.

GROSS: Has that created a new normal?

JONES: It is a new normal for self-taping, yes. And I think it'll be a combination of being in the room, especially with producers and directors, because they want to meet the actors. And they know that talking about a project is extremely important before they audition, and then what we call pre-reads, which are sort of the first audition for many, many people who just want to get their foot in the door, before they sort of make it to the cut where they get to see the producer and the director.

So yes, we get to - selfishly, we get to see a lot more actors with self-tapes that way in the pre-read section. And what I like, and I will assume many other casting directors like, is looking at all these tapes. They're - sometimes they're just hilarious. And sometimes, it's amazing to get to see so many people from literally all over the world audition and interpret a role. And, you know, God bless these actors for doing this because it's not easy and it's not cheap. But we do get to see more actors this way, at least at that level.

GROSS: Did you have Barbies when you were growing up?

JONES: Well, I wasn't allowed to have a Barbie, but I was allowed to have a Skipper. And I think - I asked my friends about this. We were there when they first came out. And I think a lot of our mothers were like, you can't have a Barbie. She has bosoms. But I was allowed to...

GROSS: Oh, really? Was that the problem?

JONES: Well, I think so.

GROSS: Couldn't you have said, yeah, but she doesn't have genitals?

JONES: Oh, God, I didn't know the word genital back then.

GROSS: (Laughter).

JONES: But I was allowed to have a Skipper doll and...

GROSS: I never heard of a Skipper doll.

JONES: What (laughter)?

GROSS: Yeah.

JONES: Skipper was, I think, the little sister or the little cousin. And I so vividly remember...

GROSS: Of Barbie?

JONES: Yes.

GROSS: Oh, yeah, yeah.

JONES: And I so vividly remember going into Kidstuff in Needham, Mass., and bending down to pick up the Skipper doll. And it was - it's so hard to say what Barbies and Skippers meant to girls back then. They were just everything. And my Skipper doll was everything. But, nope, couldn't have a Barbie. And I didn't even ask for a Barbie Dreamhouse or anything. That would not have been accepted in my family of six kids.

GROSS: So financially, "Barbie" is mega successful. Do you see anything on the back end as the casting director when a film...

JONES: Oh, no. We do not, yeah. Thank you for bringing that up. Yeah, we do not.

GROSS: Do you wish there was a casting director union that asked for things like that?

JONES: Well, we're members of the Teamsters as of maybe about 15 years ago. And we struggled and struggled to get into a union. All the other unions, I believe, turned down casting directors. And then finally, some hardy souls got us into the Teamsters. And, yes, they negotiate for all of that. One thing my first boss, the late Judith Weiner, taught me was, when we would make a deal to do a pilot, she would say, ask for a dollar residual. And even forego some of your salary. Just ask for a dollar residual for each episode of that TV show. Nobody has ever given it to me, and my God (laughter), the shows I've done that get shown, repeat, repeat, repeat. When I was told that the grandmother in "The Fresh Prince" opening credits got residuals, it was a bummer.

GROSS: (Laughter).

JONES: You know, the one with the wooden spoon, who shakes her spoon at - I can't recite the - I don't want to recite the whole song, but no. Thank you for asking. We don't get residuals. God, you know, I wish we did. Studios have never given casting people residuals, not much in paid ads - meaning the ads that show up on posters. Studios don't want to break precedents. And we try every time making a deal to get paid ads.

GROSS: Well, let me introduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is casting director Allison Jones. Her latest movie is "Barbie." We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross and this is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF LUCIANO MICHELINI'S "IL BARONE ROSSO")

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with casting director Allison Jones. The movies and TV shows she's cast include "Barbie," "Lady Bird," "The 40-Year-Old Virgin," "Superbad," "Knocked Up," "Talladega Nights," "Step Brothers," "Borat" and "Bridesmaids" and the TV shows "Veep," "The Office," "Curb Your Enthusiasm," "Freaks And Geeks" and many more.

I want to talk with you about the early shows you worked at and what network comedies were like then. So you were an assistant casting director on "Family Ties," and my understanding is that casting director really had to fight to get Michael J. Fox cast on the show. What were the executives reluctant about? What did they object to about Michael J. Fox, who became the star of the show?

JONES: I can only guess that the oft-quoted phrase from Gary Goldberg, who said, I'm never going - or Brandon Tartikoff said, I'm never going to see him on a lunchbox. I think they just thought...

GROSS: (Laughter).

JONES: ...He wasn't a leading actor at the time...

GROSS: Oh, he was...

JONES: ...And...

GROSS: ...On so many lunchboxes.

JONES: Yes, I'm sure he was on many lunchboxes. I'm just going to surmise, even though I wasn't there and from what I've read Gary David Goldberg saying and Judith saying that they just didn't think he was a leading man. And of course, Judith saw how funny he was. So I think she had heated conversations with Gary about they need to hire Michael J. Fox. So it was him not being the definition of a leading man. Then, of course, comedies all wanted the next Michael J. Fox, which evolved into the next Steve Carell or the next so-and-so to come along. But he became the archetype of all the sitcoms that came along, frankly. But that's when I saw and heard what a good casting director does and offers to a project.

GROSS: So elaborate on that.

JONES: Well, I think a good casting director - or any casting director - we all fight for the choices that we think are right for the project. And a lot of times, it's the first person we think of when we read a script. Now it's a lot harder to find people available to do projects, so you're doing a lot of legwork...

GROSS: Because there's more shows?

JONES: ...And a lot of - oh, God, yeah. There's so many more shows. I'm sure at that time, it was between one or maybe two people for a lead role in a sitcom, anyway. And that has evolved to having so many levels of having to tap dance through till you get to someone at the network or the head of the network approving an actor to be in a show.

GROSS: In your early days of comedy casting, did you have to deal with old-school agents? Agents who...

JONES: Oh, it was hilarious.

GROSS: ...Were, like, older...

JONES: Yes.

GROSS: ...You were younger, and there was this huge generation gap between their approach and what you wanted. Tell us about that.

JONES: Yes. Well, there - and God bless them. It was very old school. It was very sort of stereotypical, sweet smell of success kind of agents, some of whom are still around, God bless them. I remember once when I - probably in the mid-'90s, I was doing a "Disney Sunday Movie" and Peyton Reed, it was one of his first jobs, I believe. He's a great comedy director, and we had a blast 'cause we all had a fondness for all these old comics who would appear in - Lucille Ball and things. So we would call these old-time agents and try to get these guys back into showbiz and get them to do - you know, Charles Lane, I think we gave him his last job at the age of 101 or something. But Peyton especially worshipped Don Knotts, as did I, as did anybody who grew up in the '60s and early '70s.

And I called the agent who was an old-school agent at the time, probably had had Don since he did "The Incredible Mr. Limpet," and I made the offer - and I believe it was for $2,000 for a week or something - to be in one of these "Disney Sunday Movies." And the agent said $2,000 for Don Knotts? And that, if I ever write an autobiography, is going to be the title of the book, $2,000 for Don Knotts. It was just the greatest, old-school Hollywood, you know, picture him saying it like he was Buddy Hackett. It was basically that kind of a phrase. So...

GROSS: I'm imagining him with his feet up on a desk, a big cigar in his mouth.

JONES: Absolutely. And just being shocked I would say $2,000...

GROSS: Yeah.

JONES: ...For Don Knotts? It was fantastic. And I will never forget that. So that was that school. Comedy managers at the time were old school, I think, really, a little bit vaudevillian types who would speak that way. And it was very amusing.

GROSS: So - and I know you were casting during this era, which is kind of still going on, but not as badly as it was, where you would cast an older actor - say, Clint Eastwood, Burt Lancaster - opposite a younger woman - a much younger - like, decades younger.

JONES: Drives me crazy. Has always driven me crazy. Yes.

GROSS: So did you ever - like, does it say in those scripts, or do executives say to you, he can - you know, the movie is based around his star power, but the female star has to be much younger and, like, super gorgeous.

JONES: Oh, it drove me crazy just as a fan of all these movies that a man was married to a woman young enough to be his - almost his granddaughter. But I don't even think that's changed that much. I think all these movie stars have much younger wives and things, but it used to drive me really crazy. In the comedy world, yes, they would always have, you know, a goofball guy, the lead guy, and his girlfriend was gorgeous, and...

GROSS: Yeah.

JONES: ...The scripts would often describe them as a girl next door but who's astonishingly gorgeous and doesn't know it. I did every pilot that came my way - back in the day, in the '80s, I did every pilot. I was glad to have any work. And then eventually, I started passing on a few of those because none of those women were good enough. I mean, the - some of these actresses that producers and directors would comment on not being pretty enough, like, I'm not going to say.

But anyway, it would be astonishing to me how - and I will come out and say it - they were judged by their looks and by their legs and, you know, if they needed a pushup bra or something. It was pretty astonishing. And that has changed, thank God. Not in theory. I think studios and executives and financiers still think the female - a lot of movies right up until today have the wives or the girlfriends or whatever much younger than the male lead and someone who wouldn't be in the same universe as these guys. Talk about being out of your league. I mean, these - especially in comedies where, you know, God bless them, the guys aren't, in real life, going to actually get these women.

GROSS: Were your standards of what makes a beautiful woman different from, like, male executive standards?

JONES: Completely (laughter).

GROSS: What was the difference?

JONES: I think we were all - I mean, Elizabeth Banks, come on. Brie Larson, come on. They were all rejected in projects I was doing because studios just didn't think they were leading women. And that always blew my mind 'cause I thought frequently they were sort of too pretty for a part. But on the other hand, they were brilliantly funny and able to do the job. And yes, very different standards. You know, comedy is kind of in a slow period.

GROSS: What makes you say that?

JONES: I mean, I think - I don't know statistically, but I would have to say fewer comedies are being made for film because they're all superhero movies that are out there now, for the most part. If you want to make a comedy, an indie comedy, you have to attach some very popular actors, or two or three of them, to get somebody to finance your movie, even if it's a $6 million movie. But studio movies don't make many comedies anymore. And most of my jobs are streaming shows, and they're 13 or 10 - eight or 10 episodes at a time. HBO now does that. Actually, we just did a pilot for HBO called "The Franchise" with some amazing - you know, Armando Iannucci and Sam Mendes and some amazing comedy people. And we got to cast that from scratch, pretty much. Nobody was attached. But that is real casting when you get cast from the start. The movie business now - very few comedies getting made. If they're getting made, they're for Netflix, or they're for Amazon. And it's a time of woe for comedy, I think (laughter).

GROSS: I didn't realize that. But that's...

JONES: It just seems to me, in my opinion, there's less comedy being made. And yet when a good comedy comes out, like "Barbie," there is still a desperate desire to laugh. So, you know, it's out there, and people will go to see a good comedy. But for some reason, the studios are putting their money into franchises and superhero movies and then their sequels.

So I was thrilled to see the stunning success of both "Barbie" and "Oppenheimer," both amazing movies by amazing auteurs that still can fill the theaters and are still filling the theaters. So it's not the fault - not completely the fault of the streamers. I think we can also look to studios to look ahead instead of in back of us to see what works, which is often an argument we have with financiers about. So you're basing financing this movie on somebody who was famous five years ago but not now. It makes no sense to me.

GROSS: I also blame audiences.

JONES: Do you really?

GROSS: Well, because, I mean, first of all, you can only order what's on the menu. But...

JONES: Yes (laughter).

GROSS: Second of all, people show up for the superhero movies, and they don't show up for other films.

JONES: No, they do. Yes, they do. But, no, you're right. So it's, what came first - the...

GROSS: Yeah, it's a combination.

JONES: What is that expression (laughter)?

GROSS: Yeah.

JONES: It's a combination. But also, when a movie like "Barbie" or "Oppenheimer" come along, which are real, honest-to-goodness, thought-provoking, good movies, people will still flock to see them.

GROSS: We need to take a short break here, so let's take a pause. If you're just joining us, my guest is casting director Allison Jones. Her latest movie is "Barbie." We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF DON BYRON SONG, "SHAKE 'EM UP")

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with casting director Allison Jones. The movies and TV shows she's cast include "Barbie," "Lady Bird," "The 40-Year-Old Virgin," "Superbad," "Knocked Up," "Talladega Nights," "Step Brothers," "Borat" and "Bridesmaids" and the TV shows "Veep," "The Office," "Curb Your Enthusiasm," "Freaks And Geeks." And her first job was assistant casting director on "Family Ties."

You've done a couple of cameos as yourself.

JONES: Yes.

GROSS: My impression is you did them reluctantly because you...

JONES: Uh-huh (laughter).

GROSS: ...Didn't want to be on camera and don't think of yourself as an actor or at least not anymore. Did you learn anything that was useful for you as a casting director by doing these cameos playing yourself?

JONES: Yes. First of all, I've never seen myself as an actor, recently or currently. What I learned is that it's terrifying and that I have more respect for actors than I ever have because the pressure to get something right when that camera is rolling is terrifying to me - terrifying. So I had even more respect than I already do for the craft of acting. But what I learned from acting is the level of expertise that goes into everybody having to get their job right in making a film or making a TV show - just the respect for the ADs, for their good dispositions, for what they know is going on in the set.

I think you see that, too, I'm sure, with just producing your own show, which is basically you and a few other people but getting things right - the way you're talking to the sound engineer. These people have to really be good at their job, and they are. And that's impressive. And I don't - I'm very uncomfortable being on a set. I just get nervous. I get nervous for the actors, and I probably just get nervous because of the pressure that I sense that's on the set to get it right.

GROSS: So you don't watch yourself. And you don't watch...

JONES: No, no.

GROSS: You're not on the set. When do you see the movie that - or TV show that you cast?

JONES: I like to see the movies with a live audience. I get nervous at premieres because so many fancy people are there. I'll be honest with you. I like to see it with an audience. So I would go usually the Friday that it opened. And TV shows I watch the second it's on. You know, I don't - we're sort of distant from the actual production because our job is finished at the beginning of the production.

GROSS: Right.

JONES: And so we never know really what it's going to look like. I'm always asking, what does it look like? What is - how are they doing? What's happening, and what is the vibe of the show? And is it working, or is it not working? And how are the actors working with each other? So that is always the wondrous thing to me - when I finally see something and it's better than I ever thought it would be or worse than I ever thought it would be.

GROSS: One more question. I hate running into people who we've declined to have on the show. It really - it just pains me. I feel so uncomfortable. And I'm wondering if you experience that.

JONES: Oh, all the time.

GROSS: You run into actors who you've turned down, and then you're at a party or a dinner or run into them at the supermarket or whatever. How do you deal with that?

JONES: Most likely at the supermarket or a coffee place. I would agree with what you say. It's very awkward, and I feel terrible. And I feel the need to - if it comes up, to explain why they didn't get the part. Like, by the way, you were too young when you came in for that - that kind of thing. I'll frequently say that because actors don't really get much feedback. It's kind of the lowest priority. We had the less time to give feedback. And they get no feedback, and I think they don't get any real feedback from the people who manage them or who are their agents. And they want that. And sometimes it's a real reason. You know, you think of a real reason why they didn't get it. So, yes, it's excruciating.

GROSS: Do you stay away from parties because of that?

JONES: I'm just not social. I'm a little bit of an introvert. But, you know, the worst thing I ever had to do - and I've said it before, and I'll say it again - was to tell Bob Odenkirk he didn't get "The Office." It was just horrible. I didn't tell Bob in person, but I had to tell his agent that he didn't get "The Office." And that was - how do you turn down Bob Odenkirk? But that was the worst thing I've ever had to do. And.

GROSS: How did you do it?

JONES: I think I just had to preface it with, I'm sorry to say, but we are not going with Bob for "The Office." And it was awful. And I know agents and managers feel awful about that kind of thing, too. You know, comedy managers have played a big, important part in the development of comedy since the '90s as well, and they have worked with these folks forever. You know, they're the ones who have to inform their client that they didn't get the role.

I don't know how they do that because there couldn't be anything more upsetting than not getting a role you have your heart set on. And I don't think they get much feedback, and it must be so painful for them. And that is why I respect actors so much - because they keep going for it. And I have seen so many people start out for one line that they can't get, and now they're huge movie stars. And I'm very happy and very proud for so many people that they can write their own ticket, basically - a lot of them.

GROSS: If you ran into Bob Odenkirk at the supermarket, are you going to be OK?

JONES: Yes, I'm going to be OK. I'm going to be OK. But believe me. I'm not not going to think of that. So I will immediately think of, oh, God, "The Office."

GROSS: Well, so let me ask you one more thing. So...

JONES: OK.

GROSS: I just want to end on a note that we talked about early in the interview. Early on, we talked about how there's no back end for...

JONES: Right.

GROSS: ...Casting directors and all that.

JONES: Right.

GROSS: You cast "Barbie." You're not seeing an extra penny because it's a kind of billion-dollar success.

JONES: Right.

GROSS: You just pay it up front, and that's it, unlike actors and directors, who get some kind of - typically some kind of, like...

JONES: Yes.

GROSS: ...Residuals or points or something. Is there an Oscar for casting director?

JONES: There is no Oscar for casting. There is a casting director branch, I think, in the past few years, where we can vote for the Oscar. But we cannot join the company of, you know, directors of photography and wardrobe and production and art direction and sound mixing. They have not given us an Oscar...

GROSS: OK.

JONES: ...As they have for BAFTA. Well, I'm going to start again (ph) (laughter).

GROSS: I can make an argument for, there should be an Oscar...

JONES: Thank you.

GROSS: ...For casting director, but I want you to make it.

JONES: Well, I think it's past time that we get recognized as part of the important filmmaking process the same that production designer makeup and hair stylist, sound editor. etc., etc., are considered crucial to the filmmaking process. I don't think you can separate the cast from the casting director, and I also think that every casting director brings a different sensibility and a different cast to whatever project they're working on. And I think that our relationship with the director is every bit as collaborative as every other of the 23 or 24 recipients of an Oscar. So I think - I'll say that I think it's past time that we got recognized as being experts at our field and artists and collaborators.

GROSS: But then if there was an Oscar, you'd have to show up because you'd probably be nominated. It's just...

JONES: Yeah. I'm not - I'm so shy.

GROSS: You strike me as somebody who doesn't really like...

JONES: Yeah.

GROSS: ...Going to big ceremonies.

JONES: I don't. I don't. I don't know why. It's always - it's just too stress-filled. It's just too stress-filled. I'm sure many people in many businesses don't like to go to big things and wear fancy clothes. But it's still an honor. But, yes, I wouldn't - you know, I always went to the HBO afterparty for Emmys because, man, they were fun, and they had great food. But - and you got to see all the HBO stars.

GROSS: Allison Jones, thank you so much for talking with us. It's been a pleasure.

JONES: Thank you so much. It's great to be talked with about it. Believe me.

GROSS: Allison Jones is a casting director. Her latest movie is "Barbie." This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF ALLISON MILLER'S BOOM TIC BOOM'S "SHIMMER") Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.