What does it mean to be a comedy hack, and is it possible for a comic to age without becoming one? That's one of the central questions that Paul W. Downs and co-creators Lucia Aniello and Jen Statsky explore in the HBO Max comedy series Hacks.
The Emmy Award-winning series, which recently finished its third season, was conceived during a 2015 roadtrip. Downs and his co-creators were headed to Portland, Maine, when they started talking about the idea of contemporary, "cool comedy" — versus humor that young comedians might consider "hacky."
"We just started talking about this phenomenon and thought, 'Oh, you know what would be a cool show is a show about an icon of comedy who is misunderstood by someone of a younger generation,'" Downs says. "And so we just emailed each other the idea for the show and kept talking about it for four or five years before we pitched it."
The series centers on Deborah Vance (played by Jean Smart), a veteran comedian whose career is waning. In response, Deborah's manager (played by Downs) brings in a Gen-Z comic named Ava (Hannah Einbinder) to help freshen up her act. Along the way, Hacks explores themes of sexism in comedy and the nuances of "cancel culture" — as when some of Deborah's old offensive jokes resurface.
"It's a comedy, but we also want to make a show that makes people think," Downs says. "Because if we have ... this platform, it's like, why not make something that makes you ... think about something and reframe something you've thought about in the past?"
For Downs, Hacks is a family business; he's married to his co-creator Aniello, who went into labor with their first child while he was acting in and she was directing the final episode of season 2.
"In this particular scene I had to be nervous. And so guess what? I had a lot to draw on," he says. "We always say that, right now, Hacks is our first born, and our son is our second."
Interview highlights
On what Deborah and Ava have in common
I think both of them turn to comedy for the same reason that a lot of comedians do — because there was something in their life that was either painful and they needed to laugh through it, or, for some people, they feel isolated or different or "othered," and it's a means of connecting with people or it's a means of, sometimes, self-protection, to make other people laugh. So I think there's a lot of reasons people come to comedy. But certainly for both of them, they have a similar use of comedy, which is, it's a defense for them. It's armor for them. ...
For someone like Ava, who grew up lonely, it was a means of feeling connected to other people and making sense of the world and the things that she was observing. So it is certainly the tie that binds. It's the thing that makes them very much kindred spirits. I think there are some people who are just giddy and funny. Some people are just naturally liquid funny. But I do think that there is certainly truth to the richness of material that comes from a place of pain and hardship.
On whether or not there are lines that should not be crossed in comedy
In the pilot episode, [Deborah] does say, “There is no line. You can make a joke about anything if it's funny." ... And I think the finer point, though, on that is you can make a joke about anything if it's funny and if it doesn't cause harm. ... I think the thing is, when you are punching down, it's lazy. It's not as funny.
On meeting his collaborators Lucia Aniello (who later became his wife) and Jen Statsky at Upright Citizens Brigade
We made each other laugh. I think that was the thing. We just shared a sense of humor. There's two things. One, I found both Jen and Lucia so funny, and two, I found myself being funnier because I wanted to make them laugh. I think when you respect someone's brain and their sense of humor, getting a laugh out of them is sort of like the ultimate. It feels so good. … I think we just gravitated toward each other because we shared a sense of humor, which often is related to a sense of how you see the world and a sense of values, too.
On why they pitch jokes and ideas in email threads
We'll email [a joke] to the three of us, and then it's so easily searchable. It's usually in the moments we're not working that the muse strikes [and] we have an idea. Something comes to us and we write it down. … We're on vacation. We're out to dinner. ... So it's sort of a way to get it filed and then get back to the fun, so you can get the work filed away and you can revisit it when you're in the writer's room. But yeah, we do that. We've done that for a very long time. We still do it.
On Hacks poking fun at Hollywood only wanting existing intellectual properties, like a Gumby or Operation movie
I do think it's really hard to sell original ideas. Particularly right now, there's a real crisis in selling comedy. … I think there's less appetite to take risks on original voices and original stories. Even when we pitched [Hacks], we thought, 'Well, a show about two women who do comedy, one of whom is in a waning moment in her career. Will people want to see that?' And thank God they did. … Unless it's a sure thing, I do think there's a lot less risk happening now. ... People are afraid to do something that doesn't work.
On Hacks looking at how late night shows have changed
Exploring the ways in which show business has changed or is changing is really interesting to us because this is obviously a character study about two people. And we always said it was a peek behind the curtain and very much about their lives offstage. But it's also an examination of entertainment and comedy. It's really a show about comedy. And so late night, especially for comedians who get their first break on a late night show, whether it's doing stand-up on a late night show or being interviewed and showing a little bit of their own sense of humor on a late night show, it's still very much an important marker of your career, I think, especially for comedians. But … it doesn't necessarily have the same meaning or impact that it did when Carson was on.
Therese Madden and Susan Nyakundi produced and edited this interview for broadcast. Bridget Bentz, Molly Seavy-Nesper and Clare Lombardo adapted it for the web.
Transcript
TERRY GROSS, HOST:
This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Our guest Paul W. Downs just received Emmy nominations for his work acting in and writing for the Max TV series "Hacks." He spoke with FRESH AIR's Ann Marie Baldonado.
ANN MARIE BALDONADO, BYLINE: You may know Paul W. Downs from his role as the talent manager Jimmy in the Emmy and Peabody Award-winning TV series "Hacks." The show follows Deborah Vance, a veteran stand-up comic and Vegas headliner. When we meet Deborah, her career is waning, and she's in danger of losing part of her Las Vegas residency. It's her manager Jimmy who comes up with the idea of matching Deborah with a young Gen Z comic to help her write jokes and be more current. In this scene from the first episode, Paul W. Downs as Jimmy is fielding a call from his big client Deborah, played by Jean Smart.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "HACKS")
PAUL W DOWNS: (As Jimmy LuSaque) Deborah, perfect timing. How are you, my favorite client?
JEAN SMART: (As Deborah Vance) Marty wants to cut my dates. He blindsided me at lunch, that snake. Oh, he says he needs to appeal to a younger crowd. You got to do something about this, Jimmy.
DOWNS: (As Jimmy LuSaque) OK, I will call Morty.
SMART: (As Deborah Vance) Marty.
DOWNS: (As Jimmy LuSaque) Marty, yes. But I have a pitch. What if you hire a writer? I actually represent a very in-demand young woman. She wrote for a hit show. Nominated for an Emmy. Almost everybody is talking about her.
SMART: (As Deborah Vance) I write my own material. I do not need a writer. I need a manager. Your father would have handled this. He promised me you'd take care of me. Don't make your dead father a liar, Jimmy.
BALDONADO: Paul W. Downs actually won an Emmy for writing that episode from 2021. He co-created "Hacks" with his comedy partners - his wife Lucia Aniello and their friend and collaborator, Jen Statsky. Downs and Aniello also direct many of the episodes. Before creating "Hacks," the trio worked on the Comedy Central show "Broad City," which Downs also co-starred in. His other work includes the film "Rough Night" and the miniseries, "Time Traveling Bong." Paul W. Downs, welcome to FRESH AIR.
DOWNS: Thanks for having me. Hi.
BALDONADO: Hi. I want to go back to the origins of the show "Hacks." Where did the idea for "Hacks" come from? And I think some of the origin story involves a car trip way back in 2016.
DOWNS: Yeah, actually, 2015...
BALDONADO: Oh, 2015, OK.
DOWNS: ...If you can believe that. Yeah. So we were - Jen Statsky, Lucia Aniello and myself were driving from Boston to Portland, Maine. They were with me helping me and writing jokes for the special. And as we drove up, we were talking about our favorite comedians, most of whom are women, and how so many of those women just never have the same opportunities and just didn't get the same respect that a lot of their male counterparts did.
And so we were just talking about that phenomenon. And, you know, the three of us also started comedy at the UCB Theater in New York, which is, you know, sort of an alt comedy scene. And we were also talking about this phenomenon of cool comedy versus, you know, what young cool comedians might consider hacky comedy. And so we just started talking about this phenomenon and thought, Well, you know, what would be a cool show is a show about sort of an icon of comedy who is misunderstood by someone of a younger generation. And so we just - yeah, emailed each other the idea for the show and kept talking about it for four or five years before we pitched it.
BALDONADO: Your character, Jimmy is a manager. And from what I've read, you didn't grow up around the entertainment industry in the same way. Did you...
DOWNS: No.
BALDONADO: ...Draw on anything in particular for this perspective of this guy who's trying to make it as a manager, kind of in the shadow of his father who passed away, and who was this high-powered entertainment guy?
DOWNS: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, Jimmy is very much kind of a, I guess, a nepo baby. We used to joke or at least we joked when we were pitching the show that he would get a call, and he'd say, Jimmy LuSaque - no, no, you're thinking of my dad. Yeah, he was a great man. Yeah. Yeah, prostate cancer. Anyway, I have a web series I'd love you to check out. You know, so he kind of is in the shadow of sort of this Hollywood legend. But also, it was a means for us to kind of justify why someone his age would be representing someone like Deborah Vance. In, you know, sort of the lore of the show, when his father passed away, he sort of inherited Deborah as a client.
So someone like Ava is much more in his wheelhouse. You know, he's sort of representing emerging comedy writers and sort of younger alt comedy crowd. But Deborah is one of these legends that he also kind of manages just because she decided to stay with him. So, for us, we just - it was total fantasy, because, like you said, I did not grow up anywhere near your show business. I grew up in a really rural part of New Jersey, so rural that there was a livestock auction every week in my town when I was little. So you know, it was very much a fantasy and a creation.
BALDONADO: Now, I want to play another scene from the first episode of "Hacks." Like I said, you won an Emmy for writing this episode. It's called "There Is No Line." In this scene, Ava, the younger comic, has flown out to Las Vegas to meet the older iconic comedian Deborah. And it turns out that Deborah didn't really know that Jimmy, your character, who manages both of them, arranged this meeting. Deborah, of course, is played by Jean Smart, and Ava is played by Hannah Einbinder. And, you know, the meeting does not go well. You know, they did not get along. So Ava storms out, and she's muttering under her breath.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "HACKS")
SMART: (As Deborah Vance) Excuse me. Did you have something else to say?
HANNAH EINBINDER: (As Ava Daniels) Yeah. You've just been pretty rude, and I dropped everything to come here.
SMART: (As Deborah Vance) Oh, Christ. Oh, you want a gold star just for showing up?
EINBINDER: (As Ava Daniels) Kind of, yeah, because you're right. I'm not a fan of yours. I mean, the last thing on Earth I want to do is move to the desert to write some lame jokes for an old hack.
SMART: (As Deborah Vance) I think you better leave.
EINBINDER: (As Ava Daniels) Yeah.
SMART: (As Deborah Vance) Can I show you to the door, or would you like to go back up the chimney?
EINBINDER: (As Ava Daniels) Oh, no, I know my way out. By the way, so cool they let you move into a Cheesecake Factory.
SMART: (As Deborah Vance) Oh, is that where you wait tables? That seems like a better fit.
EINBINDER: (As Ava Daniels) Oh, yeah, I agree, you classist monster. I'd rather slang bang bang chicken and shrimp all day than work here. I mean, what is this 50 tassels on one couch - even Liberace would think it's a bit much.
SMART: (As Deborah Vance) Oh, no, you're incorrect. He actually loved it. He did poppers on that couch in '85.
BALDONADO: That's a scene from the pilot of the show "Hacks." That episode was written by my guest, Paul W. Downs. And, you know, as that scene goes on, Deborah and Ava really kind of get into it, and they have, like, disdain for each other. And, you know, going into this, Deborah has so much disdain for Ava, in particular, and at first doesn't want to hire her or anyone. And it's not until the younger comic Ava is honest with her, and I should say rude to her - it's only then that Deborah sort of is intrigued and, like, invigorated and wants to work with her. Can you talk about that idea that she's intrigued by someone who's finally honest with her?
DOWNS: Yeah, I think Deborah is somebody who may have been called a hack a million times, but nobody was brave enough to say it to her face. So I think she decides, A, this girl's pretty funny, and B, she's not afraid of me. And it really turns Deborah on because the fact that they can spar with each other and sort of rib each other. I mean, it's true of so many comics that I know that it's their love language, you know, teasing each other and making fun of each other. And I think Deborah sees in this young woman an actual opponent who might be worthy of her own wit. So I think she's really excited by the prospect of having somebody that can challenge her. Like I said, she's just creatively turned on by it. But also Ava calls her a hack.
And I think there's a degree to which Deborah wants to prove this girl wrong. And she says, you know what? I'm going to hire this girl, and I'm going to haze her, and I'm going to show her what it really takes to make it in this business, and I'm going to prove to her that I'm not a hack. I think there's a lot of - there's a *****
DOWNS: ***** prove to her that I'm not a hack. So I think there's a lot going on for Deborah in this moment that makes her say, I'll give this kid a chance.
BALDONADO: Yeah, and it's like proving this kid wrong is like proving a whole generation...
DOWNS: Absolutely.
BALDONADO: ...Of younger comics wrong.
DOWNS: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, she does represent, again, like, cool comedy - right? - like, the cool kid alt comedy, which Deborah was a part of. And most comedians start out doing things that might be edgier, might be a little more original. And, you know, some of them calcify. And that is the definition of a hack. If you're somebody who does the same thing over and over, that's hacky. But there are some comedians who continue to evolve and, you know, stay plugged in and in touch with culture, and their material changes.
And so I think Deborah does have a longing for that. And being sort of sequestered to Vegas, in her ivory tower of her big mansion there, you know, I think she knows she runs the risk of that. But she is, like Ava, a true comedian who cares so much about the - is addicted to the craft that I think the idea that this girl might be good for her work, I think, is very exciting.
BALDONADO: You know, another theme of the show is, you know, do comics have to be hurt or be cruel in order to be good? Like, you know, like you were just saying, that there was this love language of being, like, smart and cruel to each other. But I think there is that part of that because, like, both of these characters are so hurt, you find out, even the levels of it as a show goes on.
DOWNS: Yeah. I think, yeah, you certainly learn about the reason that they turned to comedy. And I think both of them turned to comedy for the same reason that a lot of comedians do, because there was something in their life that was either painful and they needed to laugh through it - or, you know, for some people, they feel isolated or different or othered, and it's a means of connecting with people. Or it's a means of, sometimes, self-protection, you know, to make other people laugh.
So I think there's a lot of reasons people come to comedy. But certainly, for both of them, they have a similar use of comedy, which is it's a defense for them. It's armor for them. But again, for someone like Ava who kind of grew up lonely, you learn, it was a means of feeling connected to other people and making sense of the world and the things that she was observing. So it is certainly the tie that binds. It's the thing that makes them very much kindred spirits.
BALDONADO: Do you think people have to be hurt to be interested in comedy?
DOWNS: No. You know, I think there are some people who are just giddy and funny. And, you know, like, some people are just naturally liquid funny. But I do think that, you know, there is certainly truth to the richness of material that comes from a place of pain and hardship. But I don't think you need to be someone who's experienced trauma to do it. I think it's great when people who have can turn that into good work. But, you know, I don't think there's a hard and fast rule.
BALDONADO: We're going to take a short break here and then we'll talk some more. My guest is actor, writer, director and producer Paul W. Downs. He's nominated for acting in and writing for the series "Hacks," which he co-created. He's already won an Emmy for Outstanding Writing for a Comedy Series in 2021 for the pilot of "Hacks." He's also wrote and starred in the comedy series "Broad City." More after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARTURO SANDOVAL'S "TEE PEE TIME")
BALDONADO: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Ann Marie Baldonado back with Emmy winner Paul W. Downs. He co-created the comedy series "Hacks" with his writing partners, his wife Lucia Aniello and their friend Jen Statsky. All of them also worked on the Comedy Central series "Broad City." Paul W. Downs played the character Trey. Downs' other work includes the film "Rough Night" and the miniseries "Time Traveling Bong."
I think it's kind of a thing now to ask comedians what their thoughts are about cancel culture, the thought that it's difficult to do comedy now because everyone's too PC. And I think it's a little unfair to ask all comics about this issue, but you and your co-creators actually take this topic head on, especially this season. Why did you want to do that and not shy away from it? I'll say, too, that the series even starts with the younger comic, Ava, having a tough time getting a job because this kind of edgy joke she put on Twitter kind of made it so that it was hard for her to get work.
DOWNS: Yeah. I mean, it's funny because we pitched this episode where Deborah goes back to her alma mater for an honorary degree but then some of her older material comes back to haunt her. We pitched that when we pitched the show, and we didn't have exactly the right moment for it. I think this season, because she's on the precipice of a really big job, and sort of the stakes of her career are more heightened than they have been, it was the perfect moment to do it.
But also, it's a scary thing because I don't think we've ever wanted the show to be a show about, quote, "cancel culture," you know? And also, it's such a sort of minefield. And, you know, to wrap your arms around it is tricky. And I think if we ever - you know, we want to make a show that, first, makes people laugh. It's a comedy. But we also want to make a show that makes people think, because honestly, if we have the opportunity to do that - we have this platform - it's like, why not make something that makes you talk with the people you've watched it with or makes you think about something and reframe something you've thought about in the past?
So we do want to do that. You know, it's sort of like - we like to think that if we lead with comedy and lead with funny first, we can get away with sort of, you know, tackling issues. Because these two people would have very different perspectives on - name any issue, you know, because they're of such different generations. And so, you know, this year we were like, well, let's do this because it feels right. And let's try and represent both of their points of view equally.
BALDONADO: Well, yeah, at the end of Season 3, Deborah, played by Jean Smart, gets into trouble because someone has released a supercut of some of her worst jokes from the past - racist jokes, jokes about people with disabilities. And Ava, the younger comic, like you were just saying, encourages her to be honest and maybe come clean and apologize. And I want to play a scene from that second to last episode that addresses this.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "HACKS")
EINBINDER: (As Ava Daniels) So little problem - someone made a supercut of some of your more problematic older material and it's gaining traction. And apparently some students are planning to protest your ceremony.
SMART: (As Deborah Vance) Ugh (ph). OK, which minority group is upset?
EINBINDER: (As Ava Daniels) OK, not great that you have to ask that, and also, I don't think minority is the proper term anymore.
SMART: (As Deborah Vance) What are they called?
EINBINDER: (As Ava Daniels) No, don't say they.
SMART: (As Deborah Vance) Oh, I thought everybody was they now.
EINBINDER: (As Ava Daniels) That's a different thing.
SMART: (As Deborah Vance) OK, just - oh, God. This is just the worst possible timing.
EINBINDER: (As Ava Daniels) For you to be held accountable for your actions?
SMART: (As Deborah Vance) Yes. I am inches away from my [expletive] dream job.
EINBINDER: (As Ava Daniels) Hey. I think you're getting off pretty easy. OK? You're lucky that Zsa Zsa Gabor [expletive] is only available on VHS. I mean, it was textbook slut-shaming.
SMART: (As Deborah Vance) Well, she was a slut.
EINBINDER: (As Ava Daniels) Oh, my - well, and that's - but that's fine.
SMART: (As Deborah Vance) Oh, God. OK, look. We got to squash this.
EINBINDER: (As Ava Daniels) I guess. Or you could just apologize.
SMART: (As Deborah Vance) No.
EINBINDER: (As Ava Daniels) Deborah, the jokes weren't great. You wouldn't do them today.
SMART: (As Deborah Vance) No. You never apologize for a joke. I'm a comedian. I was just doing my job. OK. OK, look, look, it's just some of the students, right?
EINBINDER: (As Ava Daniels) Yeah.
SMART: (As Deborah Vance) OK, OK, then all I have to do is, you know, curry favor on campus with the other students. You know, drown out the dissenters. Make the minority voices a minority.
EINBINDER: (As Ava Daniels) That can go right in the supercut.
SMART: (As Deborah Vance) I'll tell what we're going to do. We will go to that fraternity party tonight. I'll buy them supplies. And I will do that student improv show I was invited to do. It's a perfect opportunity to make myself look good.
EINBINDER: (As Ava Daniels) OK. Deborah, improv has never made anyone look good, OK?
BALDONADO: I like ending with that...
DOWNS: (Laughter).
BALDONADO: ...Knowing that the co-creators of this show came up in improv. Yeah, I want to just ask you about how you figured out how you wanted Deborah to respond to this, because it is - this is really one of the most kind of in-depth and sophisticated ways of taking on this topic of cancel culture and how people aren't really canceled.
DOWNS: Yeah.
BALDONADO: Or as Deborah says, you know, she was canceled, you know, years ago before there was ever a name for it.
DOWNS: Right.
BALDONADO: And it only became - they only gave it a name after it started happening to powerful white men.
DOWNS: Yes. Yeah, I think that's actually - like, for us, it was one of the really important things because in the history of the character, she was maligned in the press by an ex-husband who was jealous and, you know, made to seem crazy. And so she was somebody who was wrongfully canceled. But, again, like she says, there wasn't a name for it. It really has only had a name when it started happening to powerful white men.
So, you know, in a way, especially for someone like Deborah, who has been on the right side of history and, you know, again, in the history of the character was fined by the FCC for saying abortion on TV. She did things that were progressive, and she did things that were left-leaning and she did things that she feels should get her a pass, and that the fact that she's getting taken to task now is really not fair. And what Ava says is yes, and people can have a reaction to your work because you're a rich and famous comedian. And it's not a judgment on your entire being. It's about certain work that you did.
I think that's, like, an important thing because I do understand the defensiveness that comedians have when there is pushback or there is negative reaction. Because oftentimes as a comedian, your job is to observe the world and to make people laugh. And if you've done that, A, you feel as though you've done your job well and B, if over time it hasn't aged well, it feels like it's an attack of your actual being because it's your observations. It's the way your mind works.
But the truth is it's just about jokes. I do think it's not about - I don't think people are like, wow, that person is bad with a capital B forever. You know, I think it usually is more site specific. And so yeah, I think it was a way for us to be able to sort of show both sides of the argument. And hopefully, just the fact that Deborah is willing to engage speaks volumes to the fact that she isn't a hack. You know, she's somebody who evolves.
BALDONADO: My guest is actor, writer, director and producer Paul W. Downs. He's nominated for acting in and writing for the series "Hacks," which he co-created. He's already won an Emmy for outstanding writing for a comedy series in 2021 for the pilot of "Hacks." He's also wrote and starred in the comedy series "Broad City." More after a short break. I'm Ann Marie Baldonado. This is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNBITE OF JON DE LUCIA'S "LET'S FALL IN LOVE")
BALDONADO: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Ann Marie Baldonado, back with Emmy winner Paul W. Downs. He co-created the comedy series "Hacks" with his writing partners - his wife, Lucia Aniello, and their friend Jen Statsky. All of them also worked on the Comedy Central series "Broad City." Paul W. Downs played the character Trey. Downs other work includes the film "Rough Night" and the miniseries "Time Traveling Bong."
You and your comedy partners - your wife, Lucia Aniello, and your friend and collaborator Jen Statsky - you all met in the world of UCB, Upright Citizens Brigade. How did you know that you would be good collaborators or that you'd work well together?
DOWNS: I mean, there's two things. One, I found both Jen and Lucia so funny. And two, I found myself being funnier because I wanted to make them laugh. You know, I think when you respect someone's brain and their sense of humor, getting a laugh out of them is sort of, like, the ultimate, you know? It feels so good.
So - and there are some people that, you know, you just have - you just click with, that you just have chemistry with. And it's true of non-comedians, too. You know, you have friends that you love laughing with. And you have other friends who are a little bit more serious, or you're like, well, that was fun, but after you leave dinner, you're like, it wasn't as fun as when I go out with XYZ because we make each other laugh. You know, I think that's true of anybody. So, yeah, I think we just gravitated toward each other because we shared a sense of humor, which, often, I think, is related to a sense of how you see the world and a sense of values, too.
BALDONADO: Can you describe how you all write, like, working on "Hacks"? Do you take different parts of the story, or do you write the same parts and compare notes?
DOWNS: No, I can't tell you. No, I can. I can reveal it. So we basically kind of share the responsibility of everything. We really - we - as I mentioned, when we pitched the show, we pitched the very last episode. So we sort of had at least a framework for where we wanted to go. And then, you know, with our writer's room, we break story, and we figure out the ins and outs and the scenes of every episode. And, you know, we all write - set up punchline jokes. We all write character dialogue jokes. We all write visual things. I think certainly we gravitate toward one or the other, but you kind of have to wear a lot of hats.
BALDONADO: You've talked about how when you came up with the idea of "Hacks," you had this idea, and then you wrote an email to all three of you describing the show idea so you wouldn't forget. And I heard you say that you all still write each other's emails...
DOWNS: Yes.
BALDONADO: ...With ideas and jokes. And, like, that's your - one of your, like, filing systems, I guess.
DOWNS: Well, nowadays, it's like we don't carry a little notepad around. But, yeah, it's so easy to have subject jokes dash "Hacks" because we have certain jokes or other things, too. But - and then we - you know, then we'll email it to the three of us. Then it's so easily searchable, which means that - when we're working, obviously, we don't have to do that. But it's usually in the moments we're not working that the muse strikes. We have an idea. Something comes to us, and we write it down.
BALDONADO: So, like, you're on vacation, and you're like...
DOWNS: Yeah.
BALDONADO: ...Oh, this would be something funny for Deborah to do or...
DOWNS: Exactly. We're on vacation. We're out to dinner. We - you know, whatever it is, and it's sort of like we're sort of in more of a mode of play, you know, that something then comes to you. And so it's sort of a way to get it filed and then get back to the fun, you know, so you can revisit it when you're in the writer's room. But, yeah, we do that. We've done that for a very long time. We still do it.
BALDONADO: Do you have a recent example of an email or something that sort of went around like that?
DOWNS: I mean, I can pull one up...
BALDONADO: Oh, that'd be great.
DOWNS: ...If you want. Yeah. Ooh, I can't read you that one cause that one is about the series finale. So I...
BALDONADO: Oh.
DOWNS: ...Can't read that one. This is hard. Oh, let me see.
BALDONADO: Is there an old one from...
DOWNS: OK, here's a specific one. Here's - like, here's a specific that isn't a joke, but here's a specific. Lucia emailed = a character in the show has a wet T-shirt from having wet hair because she always shows up late, and Deborah finds that quite disgusting. So that's an example of a character specific - somebody who's showered 10 minutes before they arrive to work, and it really bugs Deborah. So that's something that's not, like, an actual line of dialogue, but sometimes it's lines of dialogue. You know, let me see if this one's a line of dialogue. OK.
BALDONADO: So exciting.
DOWNS: OK 'cause this one is really funny. Ava is sort of in, like, mesh shorts and a big T-shirt, and Deborah says, you're not funny enough to dress like Adam Sandler. And then Ava says, well, he's too rich to dress like me. And then Deborah says, he's rich enough not to have shame. You, on the other hand, should have a lot. So, anyway, that was a literal three-line scene that was emailed. So yeah.
BALDONADO: I love that.
DOWNS: Sometimes it's it's nearly a scene. You know, it's an exchange. It depends. You know, you never know. You never know.
BALDONADO: So funny. By the way, I love that Max, the people who produced - who were producing "Hacks," who greenlit it, didn't want to know how it ended.
DOWNS: Well, yeah.
BALDONADO: They wanted to, like, hold on to the - you know, to not get the spoiler of it. I loved that when I read it.
DOWNS: What initially happened was in the pitch, Suzanna Makkos said, you guys can keep going, but I understand the show. I get it, and I would like to buy it. So it was very exhilarating to be in the room and hear that. And then we did say at a certain point during the development of Season 1- we said, well, do you want to hear the ending? - because we never got to it. And she said no. So, yeah, that was interesting that she and sort of everybody else on the creative team at HBO Max were like, that's OK. We'll get there when we get there. And, you know, it's been fun to know it and have, you know, other people still wait.
BALDONADO: And your main actors don't know, right?
DOWNS: No, no, no, no. I mean, they don't even know what is going to happen in the season.
BALDONADO: Right.
DOWNS: Both Jean and Hannah read scripts as they come out, so they're very unspoiled in terms of what's going to happen. I mean, some shows, I think people sit down with the actors and say, here's the basic trajectory of the season. Here's what's going to happen. But it's interesting. They almost receive the scripts as if they're an audience member. You know, they kind of read them in order before the table reads happen, which is kind of fun because then we get texts from Jean or Hannah being like, oh, no. Oh, my God. You know, and they get to react in real time to things that are happening without having, you know, sort of, like, a pitch preview of what that is, which is cool.
DOWNS: I think that's cool. And I think a lot of other actors on the show have kind of decided to do the same thing. They're just like, yeah, I'll just - I'll read it right before the table read, and I'll be shocked.
BALDONADO: Now, you and your creative partner and wife, Lucia Aniello, have a son. I think he's around 2. Is that right?
DOWNS: Yeah, he's two years and four months.
BALDONADO: How has that changed your outlook on work or the place that it has in your lives? Your family business is comedy.
DOWNS: Yes, our family business is comedy. And we always say that right now "Hacks" is our firstborn, and our son is our second. But - so it hasn't really changed our work too much. I mean, one thing - you know, we write primarily from home, and so we get to see him.
The other thing is that we've always - I think, weirdly, because we are together, it means that the lines are blurred from when work starts and stops, but we have always really tried to have a great work-life balance with our writers' room. And so our hours are, I think, very reasonable, and it means we get to, you know, wake up with him in the morning. Well, we also get to wake up with him 'cause he gets up at 5:30. He's such an early riser. It's like, come on. But I don't think it's really changed the way we work, to be honest. It's certainly given us new material because he's very funny.
BALDONADO: Well, is it true that Lucia was in labor and directing...
DOWNS: Yes.
BALDONADO: ...At the same time - like, directing...
DOWNS: Yes, she...
BALDONADO: ...An episode of "Hacks"?
DOWNS: Yeah. I woke up, and she said - and I had to - I was directing a scene from an episode and also acting in the finale of Season 2 on the day that she went into labor. And so I woke up, and she said, hi. Stay calm, but I am in labor and have been since 2 a.m. And I was like, what? And she's like, but I really think you need to work. And I was like, what - no way. And she was like, listen. I think this is a long process. I think I'm going to be in labor - and she was, honestly, for, like, 48 hours. So she was correct.
She was like, you go. I'm going to do what is called QTake, which is where she can remotely watch scenes. I'll direct between contractions. I know that sounds mentally ill, but she did. And actually, in this particular scene, I had to be nervous. And so guess what? I had a lot to draw on. I was method that day. I was looking white as a ghost. I was very nervous and anxious to get out of there. But, yeah, she directed while in labor, and it was a crazy day.
BALDONADO: Let's take a short break here, and we'll talk some more. My guest is actor, writer, director and producer Paul W. Downs. He's nominated for acting in and writing for the series "Hacks," which he co-created. He's already won the Emmy for outstanding writing for a comedy series in 2021 for the pilot of "Hacks." He also wrote for and starred in the comedy series "Broad City" - more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF COOTIE WILLIAMS' "RINKY DINK")
BALDONADO: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Ann Marie Baldonado, back with Emmy winner Paul W. Downs. He co-created the comedy series "Hacks."
There's this funny ongoing joke this season, Season 3, where the writer Ava is trying to get work and your character, Jimmy, as her manager, is trying to help her out and is sharing some of the writing assignments that are being solicited. I wanted to play a part of a clip where Jimmy and Ava and Kayla are talking about this.
DOWNS: Please.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "HACKS")
EINBINDER: (As Ava Daniels) So Deborah and I agreed that while I'm with her, I should also spend time working on my own stuff.
DOWNS: (As Jimmy LuSaque) You absolutely should. I would love to get a feature out of you.
EINBINDER: (As Ava Daniels) You and me both. So I was wondering if you knew of any, like, open writing assignments that you think would be good for me.
DOWNS: (As Jimmy LuSaque) Yes, I have coverage from Kayla, actually...
MEGAN STALTER: (As Kayla Schaeffer) Woo (ph).
DOWNS: (As Jimmy LuSaque) ...That I think might be interesting.
EINBINDER: (As Ava Daniels) OK, great.
DOWNS: (As Jimmy LuSaque) Literally every studio wants a procedural based on Operation. Remember that game?
EINBINDER: (As Ava Daniels) OK, what else you got?
DOWNS: (As Jimmy LuSaque) OK. So they've done some market research, and they found that Gen Z thinks the animated spoon from "Beauty And The Beast" is hot and, apparently, can get it. So they want something that focuses on his love life, like a spinoff focusing on the animated spoon's love life.
EINBINDER: (As Ava Daniels) Love life. All right.
DOWNS: (As Jimmy LuSaque) OK.
EINBINDER: (As Ava Daniels) Give me another one.
DOWNS: (As Jimmy LuSaque) No spoon. OK. Oh, I got it. I found it. This one is good for you. They're doing a bisexual Gumby. He bends both ways.
STALTER: (As Kayla Schaeffer) You're bisexual.
DOWNS: (As Jimmy LuSaque) Yeah, so that might be perfect for you. The working title - "Gumba."
EINBINDER: (As Ava Daniels) OK. You know what? I think I'm just going to try to write an idea of my own.
DOWNS: (As Jimmy LuSaque) Original is really harder to sell. Honestly, nobody wants it. But Roku is open, and they have two buckets they're looking to fill right now - noisy concepts and Black joy. I think you should focus on noisy concepts, though, since you are not Black - no offense.
EINBINDER: (As Kayla Schaeffer) You're not.
DOWNS: (As Jimmy LuSaque) Oh, OK. I missed one. They want to do something with "Sleeping Beauty," but apparently this time, it's consensual.
BALDONADO: That's a scene from "Hacks." And I'm sure this might be a little exaggerated for effect, but...
DOWNS: Yeah.
BALDONADO: ...Are there really assignments like this that get posted and you're asked to submit for these or you were asked to submit for this kind of stuff earlier in your writing career?
DOWNS: Well, you know, I haven't done a lot of writing assignments - like, open assignments - pitching on them, but I do think things like this exist, certainly things around, you know, IP like Gumby, you know, or Operation. You know, there is, like - obviously, there's, you know, a lot of stuff that, whether it's "Lego Movie" or "Barbie," you know, that comes out of existing IP like that.
Obviously, we exaggerate it. But I also think, sadly, what Jimmy says about original ideas being harder to sell is true. I do think it's really hard to sell original ideas. And I think, particularly right now, there's, like, a real crisis in selling comedy. I think it's comedy because it either can really hit and connect with a lot of people or be something that, you know, is a little more niche and doesn't necessarily connect. I think there's less appetite to take risks on original voices and original stories. And so I do think, sadly, that one isn't an exaggeration at all.
BALDONADO: One of the plot points of the whole series is that Deborah Vance has always wanted to host a late-night talk show. And she came really close when she was a younger comic, but she didn't get it. And it had always been her dream. She talks about how she remembers watching Johnny Carson as a kid with her family, with her dad who would drink, and it was just like one of the times where they were together and could laugh 'cause that was so rare. Can you talk about that? - because I think there is sometimes that sadness, nostalgia that motivates people.
DOWNS: Oh, yeah. I mean, I think, obviously, for comedians, having a job like Johnny Carson had - it seems very much like the ultimate, you know? Hosting a late-night show, being able to be funny but also make your guests funny in the way that he could or Deborah Vance could makes sense for it to just be, you know, a bucket list item for her, something that she's always wanted to do.
But we did want to give it some personal stakes. And so, yeah, she talks about how you know, her dad was a drinker, and the later it got, the worse it got. But, you know, when Carson would come on, it was this sort of reprieve, this moment where he would laugh, and they would all laugh, and she just thought, if I could just **
DOWNS: ***** if I could just live in that hour. And so, you know, it's a moment where we learn really how personal it is for her beyond just what it would mean for her as a comic. And, you know, the fact that she had the chance to do it in the early '70s, and then because of this very public divorce and house fire that she was blamed for - you know, she was ostensibly canceled - that chance was taken away.
BALDONADO: Not to give too much away, but Deborah is getting this chance, second chance, to do a late night show. And it's interesting that it's coming at a time when, you know, I think the future of late night is a bit up in the air. You know, shows are still mostly hosted by white men, by men. But also, there are fewer and fewer people watching late night. Is that something that interests you, like, you and your co-creators, this bit about late night and that, like, in this universe you've created, a woman's getting to lead a show when late night is at this different place?
DOWNS: Oh, yeah. I mean, I think, you know, exploring the ways in which show business has changed or is changing is really interesting to us, because, you know, this is obviously a character study about two people - and we always said it was a peek behind the curtain and very much about their lives offstage - but it's also an examination of entertainment and comedy. It's really a show about comedy. And so late night, especially for comedians who get their first break on a late night show, whether it's doing stand-up on a late night show or being interviewed and showing a little bit of their own sense of humor on a late night show, you know, it's still very much an important marker of your career, I think, especially for comedians.
But like you said, it doesn't necessarily have the same meaning or impact that it did when Carson was on. So, yeah, it is something that we're interested in exploring because we're interested in exploring comedy as a whole. But I do think - you know, and Jimmy, my character, says this this season when he makes the sort of case for Deborah. You know, he says that a lot of the people that watch the late night shows now would be Deborah's audience.
BALDONADO: I think Jimmy also says a line about how the people who watch late night are people who don't know how to turn on computers or something like that (laughter).
DOWNS: Yes. Yeah, yeah. They can't work their remote. A lot of people that watch late night can't work their remote.
BALDONADO: (Laughter).
DOWNS: And, you know, Deborah sold, you know, 50,000 physical DVDs last year, so...
BALDONADO: Yeah. No, it's true. It's like...
DOWNS: She makes a lot of sense for those people.
BALDONADO: Yeah, the late night audience is aging.
DOWNS: Although, you know, it's got a different iteration now. I do feel like sometimes I learn about people or I see comedians because of, you know, if I haven't watched it live, I'll see a clip.
BALDONADO: Right.
DOWNS: You know, I mean, those things, I do think they still permeate culture. I do think they still can be kingmakers, those shows. I just think it's a different way of consuming it.
BALDONADO: Well, Paul W. Downs, congratulations on the success of "Hacks" and thanks for joining us.
DOWNS: Thank you. Oh, thanks for having me.
GROSS: Paul W. Downs spoke with FRESH AIR's Ann Marie Baldonado. He co-created the series "Hacks." He's nominated for two Emmys, Outstanding Supporting Actor in a Comedy Series and Outstanding Writing for a Comedy Series. "Hacks" has been renewed for a fourth season. The first three seasons are streaming on Max. After a break, David Bianculli reviews the Turner Classic Movies series "Two For One," featuring guest presenters, and talks about Turner's long history of guest presenters, including Sondheim and Trump. This is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF ROBBEN FORD AND BILL EVANS' "PIXIES") Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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