Hakeem Jeffries says Democrats won't pay a 'ransom note' to GOP over debt ceiling
New York Rep. Hakeem Jeffries, the new leader of House Democrats, insists the looming national debt crisis will be resolved without his party submitting to demands by Republicans who want to negotiate spending cuts in exchange for their support in raising the debt ceiling.
"There is a difference between a compromise and a ransom note. And so let me be clear. We are not going to pay a ransom note to extremists in the other party," Jeffries said this week in an interview with NPR's Steve Inskeep.
When asked whether Democrats would stick to their position even if it meant risking a default, Jeffries emphatically rejected that scenario saying, "We're not going to let the car go off the cliff even though there are people who are willing to do it."
Jeffries added that there is "a time and a place to have a discussion about future spending" and he thinks those conversations should happen later in the year when Congress traditionally decides spending levels through its appropriations process.
Jeffries sees an endgame to this latest confrontation.
"We will find a vehicle legislatively," Jeffries said, that allows Democrats to vote with "a handful of reasonable Republicans" to save the country from economic calamity.
Jeffries made his remarks as part of a wide-ranging interview at the U.S. Capitol, where he recently moved into the office suite of the House minority leader. In talking of his new job, he said he would work with the majority whenever possible, but that he would oppose extreme measures, including threats over the debt limit.
Jeffries, 52, is Rep. Nancy Pelosi's successor as the leader of House Democrats, and the first Black leader of a party in Congress. After last year's midterm elections, his party is narrowly in the minority. Republicans have a four seat majority in the House. But Jeffries believes his caucus will be able to wield some power whenever Republicans wrestle with their own internal divisions.
This month, House Republicans displayed their divisions, needing fifteen rounds of voting before electing House Speaker Kevin McCarthy. Democrats were united: every one of their votes on every ballot went for Jeffries.
He's a native of Brooklyn, a son of public employees who became a corporate lawyer, and then rose in New York's bare-knuckle politics. Elected to Congress in 2012, he proved an effective partisan as one of the managers of President Donald Trump's first impeachment trial, and also effective within his party, rising in the ranks of Democratic leadership.
Though he has a largely progressive voting record himself, Jeffries has said he would not "bend a knee" to "hard-left socialists."
In our conversation, Jeffries offered no critique of his fellow Democrats saying, "we're all off to a great start as a family, nor even a critique of Speaker McCarthy, whom he has dismissed in the past as a "sellout" to Donald Trump.
This interview has been edited for length and clarity.
Interview highlights
On working with House Speaker Kevin McCarthy
Speaker McCarthy and I have had some very positive, forward looking conversations about trying to figure out where we can find common ground. We know we are going to strongly disagree in certain areas. That means that we should lean in even harder to try to figure out where the areas of common ground might be in order to deliver.
SI: I want to clarify this. A year or two back, you said McCarthy is not a serious person because he had sold himself effectively to Donald Trump. But you're saying you're now in a room with him and having productive conversations.
Kevin McCarthy was elected as the speaker of the United States House of Representatives. I think he has the confidence of the overwhelming majority of his caucus, his conference, as evidenced by the fact that eventually he got there in terms of being the speaker.
On the debt ceiling
We've incurred these bills. We need to pay them. In fact ... with the debt that we have, 25% of it was incurred during the four years of Donald Trump's presidency. And so, one, we're not going to be lectured about fiscal responsibility. Two, we want to make clear to the American people that the debt ceiling discussion is all about paying bills that have already been incurred. And three, we are not going to negotiate with individuals who have a gun to the head of the American people, the economy, Social Security and Medicare, by threatening to default on our debt.
On whether House Democrats will negotiate with Republicans to raise the debt ceiling
There is a difference between a compromise and a ransom note. And so let me be clear. We are not going to pay a ransom note to extremists in the other party. However, as President Biden has indicated, there's a time and a place to have a discussion about future spending. President Biden is going to put forth a budget. House Republicans on the budget committee will have an opportunity to do the same. We can go through the budget process. We can go through the appropriations process. Those are the appropriate vehicles for trying to find common ground as it relates to how we spend taxpayer dollars in the future.
On what leverage Democrats have to raise the debt ceiling without major concessions
We will be able to, at the end of the day, convince a handful of reasonable Republicans in the House to do what the business community throughout America have suggested needs to be done. What the U.S. Chamber of Commerce believes needs to be done. What Wall Street says needs to be done. Which is to make sure we pay America's bills that have already been incurred.
On keeping progressive and moderate Democrats together
I think that we're all off to a great start together as a family, as a caucus. And as I've repeatedly indicated, I have tremendous respect for every single member of the House Democratic Caucus, from Representative Ocasio-Cortez to Representative Josh Gottheimer, and all points in between, because the fact that we are so diverse, diverse in terms of race or gender, ethnicity, sexual orientation, gender identification, life experience, ideology and region. That's what makes the House Democratic Caucus the most authentic representatives of the American people, in my view, because we closely resemble and reflect the gorgeous mosaic of the American people.
On the recent discovery of more classified documents mishandled by White House officials including President Biden, former Vice President Pence and others
This matter is now in the hands of a special prosecutor as it relates to the current president and the former most immediate past president of the United States of America. And I think my view is that the special prosecutor will follow the facts, apply the law, be guided by the Constitution and eventually present that information as to what happened to the American people and to the Department of Justice. And so I don't want to get out ahead of the special prosecutor, but I do think at some point, Congress perhaps will have a discussion about generally dealing with classified documents in a way that makes the most sense as we move forward.
On the days-long effort to elect a speaker of the House for the 118th Congress
I never expected that I would hear my name, I think approximately 3,179 times.
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Transcript
STEVE INSKEEP, HOST:
We've been talking with the leader of Democrats in the House of Representatives. Hakeem Jeffries was in the House chamber in the early morning hours of January 7, and he listened as a clerk gave vote totals on the 15th ballot for speaker of the House.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)
UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Of which the honorable Kevin McCarthy of the state of California has received 216.
(CHEERING)
INSKEEP: Kevin McCarthy stood and smiled as he finally won. The clerk also read the votes for the Democratic candidate.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)
UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: The honorable Hakeem Jeffries of the state of New York has received 212.
(CHEERING)
INSKEEP: Jeffries stayed seated at first but finally rose to acknowledge the applause. He is now the House Democratic leader, the successor to Nancy Pelosi, the first Black leader of either party in Congress and the minority leader whose job is to challenge Speaker McCarthy if he can. In a speech after the vote, he pledged to work with Republicans whenever possible but also listed 26 ways he disagreed with many of them...
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)
HAKEEM JEFFRIES: American values over autocracy, benevolence over bigotry...
INSKEEP: ...One for every letter of the alphabet.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)
JEFFRIES: People over politics, quality-of-life issues over QAnon, reason over racism...
INSKEEP: Reaching the letter X, he said Democrats would be xenial, or hospitable, not xenophobic.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)
JEFFRIES: So I represent one of the most diverse districts in the country.
INSKEEP: He comes from Brooklyn in New York City, in a district with many races, religions and nationalities. He is the son of public employees who became a corporate lawyer. He also rose in New York's bare-knuckle politics, losing races before he won. Reaching Washington, he became a manager of one of Donald Trump's impeachments. And during the trial, he quoted the Brooklyn-born rapper Biggie Smalls.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)
JEFFRIES: President Trump corruptly abused his power, and then he tried to cover it up. And if you don't know, now you know.
INSKEEP: Climbing the House leadership, he edged out rivals and won support from Pelosi when she decided to step back. When we met at the Capitol, Jeffries wore a dark, striped suit and sneakers. He said House rules require a jacket and tie but do not specify the type of shoes. And we talked of his historic election.
JEFFRIES: I never expected that I would hear my name, I think, approximately 3,179 times.
INSKEEP: People were voting for you again and again for speaker.
JEFFRIES: Because people were voting.
INSKEEP: Not that anyone was counting the exact number, but there you are.
JEFFRIES: Not that I was counting, either, but I have been told that number.
INSKEEP: We looked it up, and 3,179 was exactly the number which a person who counts votes for a living would know. Democrats united behind him.
JEFFRIES: Nancy Pelosi has consistently urged us to maintain that type of unity because it is our power.
(SOUNDBITE OF BEEPING)
INSKEEP: We'll just let this finish.
We stopped for a beeping sound, which echoes every so often through the Capitol complex. The bells are used to warn lawmakers when they need to show up for a vote. The power to call those votes now belongs to Republicans. Jeffries has to deal with a House speaker he fiercely criticized for objecting to the 2020 election result.
JEFFRIES: Our orientation, our focus, our goal, our objective should be to deliver for everyday Americans. And so Speaker McCarthy and I have had, you know, some very positive, forward-looking conversations about trying to figure out where we can find common ground.
INSKEEP: I want to clarify this. A year or two back, you said McCarthy is not a serious person because he had sold himself, effectively, to Donald Trump. But you're saying you're now in a room with him and having productive conversations.
JEFFRIES: Kevin McCarthy was elected as the speaker. I think he has the confidence of the overwhelming majority of his caucus, his conference, as evidenced by the fact that, eventually, he got there. And so I think it's our role and responsibility to make sure that we can find common ground where possible but also simultaneously and consistently push back against extremism whenever it rears its ugly head.
INSKEEP: It is commonly said of the House minority that because of the rules of the House that you have no real power. Is that correct? You have no real power?
JEFFRIES: I don't believe that that is going to be the case in this current 118th Congress, in part because we're unified. We're focused. We're together. And the other side of the aisle, as we saw during the first few weeks of the year, has a wide variety of views.
INSKEEP: Republicans have such a narrow majority, they can only govern when they're nearly unanimous, but they plan to challenge President Biden's administration. Speaker McCarthy has declined to raise the federal debt limit unless the president and Democrats agree to dramatic reductions in spending.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)
KEVIN MCCARTHY: Why wouldn't we sit down now, set a budget, set a path to get us to a balanced budget? And let's start paying this debt off and make sure the future generation has as many opportunities as we do.
INSKEEP: The White House has refused to negotiate this way, and Hakeem Jeffries says there's no reason to barter over paying U.S. government bills.
JEFFRIES: That is what the debt ceiling discussion is all about. We've incurred these bills. We need to pay them. In fact, with the debt that we have, 25% of it was incurred during the four years of Donald Trump's presidency.
INSKEEP: We checked that claim that about a quarter of the $31 trillion of U.S. debt was incurred during those four years, and it is roughly correct.
JEFFRIES: And so, one, we're not going to be lectured about fiscal responsibility. Two, we want to make clear to the American people that the debt ceiling discussion is all about paying bills that have already been incurred. And, three, we are not going to negotiate with individuals who have a gun to the head of the American people, the economy, Social Security and Medicare by threatening to default on our debt.
INSKEEP: Republicans think they have leverage, and they use that word. They think they have leverage because they are refusing to raise the debt limit unless you give concessions. What leverage, if any, do you have to force them off that?
JEFFRIES: Understand that when Republicans say they have leverage, what they are threatening to do is catastrophic.
INSKEEP: But what's your leverage to push them off that?
JEFFRIES: Our leverage is the debt ceiling has consistently been raised for the last 100 years. And we should not and will not default today. That is the mainstream position. That's the position that Senate Republican leader Mitch McConnell holds.
INSKEEP: In 2011, the last time there was a big crisis over the debt ceiling, President Obama did ultimately accept a compromise. Republicans demanded restraints on spending, and both sides signed off on some long-term restraints on spending. It was a moment when there had been a lot of government spending, and it was broadly agreed that it was OK to bring it back, to rein it in some.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)
BARACK OBAMA: But I want to announce that the leaders of both parties in both chambers have reached an agreement that will reduce the deficit and avoid default.
INSKEEP: We are now, again, after a big crisis when there's been a lot of government spending, and there may be a broad consensus that things need to be restrained again. Is there, in fact, room for some negotiation or compromise there?
JEFFRIES: Yeah. There's a difference between a compromise and a ransom note. And so let me be clear. We are not going to pay a ransom note to extremists in the other party. However, as President Biden has indicated, there's a time and a place to have a discussion about future spending. We can go through the budget process. We can go through the appropriations process. Those are the appropriate vehicles for trying to find common ground as it relates to how we spend taxpayer dollars in the future.
INSKEEP: But are you saying you are...
JEFFRIES: But we are not going to pay a ransom note in the...
INSKEEP: Never?
JEFFRIES: A ransom note?
INSKEEP: Are you saying never? You'd say to Republicans, drive the car off the cliff. We are not going to grab the wheel.
JEFFRIES: We're not going to let the car go off the cliff, even though there are people who are willing to do it, to try to blow up Social Security and Medicare.
INSKEEP: Republicans have denied they want to blow up Social Security or Medicare, although it's unclear what they would cut.
JEFFRIES: No. We cannot pay that ransom note. And we will find a vehicle, legislatively. We will be able to, at the end of the day, convince a handful of reasonable Republicans in the House to do what the business community throughout America have suggested needs to be done, what the U.S. Chamber of Commerce believes needs to be done, what Wall Street says needs to be done, which is to make sure we pay America's bills that have already been incurred.
INSKEEP: For now, Jefferies has no power to force a vote. He's waiting and working to keep his caucus behind him. Some of the most progressive Democrats have distrusted Jeffries and even talked of challenging him in a primary in the past. But Jeffries insists his caucus is off to a good start as a family, as he put it. And he's hoping that Republicans will divide before Democrats do.
JEFFRIES: You know, at the end of the day, it's important for us to have broad, comprehensive, maybe even sometimes noisy discussions about, what is the right path forward for us to achieve progress for the American people, for us to lift up everyday Americans, which is why, you know, we do what we do? I mean, we run to win. We win to govern. We govern to lift people up.
INSKEEP: Mr. Jeffries, it's a pleasure talking with you. Thank you so much.
JEFFRIES: Thank you so much.
INSKEEP: Did we miss anything important you wanted to talk about or get anything wildly wrong?
JEFFRIES: Well, that was the first interview that I've probably done as leader where George Santos didn't come up, and I'm thankful for it.
INSKEEP: (Laughter).
JEFFRIES: So you got everything in.
(SOUNDBITE OF THE NOTORIOUS B.I.G SONG, "JUICY") Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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