How the U.S. helped secure the historic prisoner swap with Russia

Transcript

LEILA FADEL, HOST:

Some of the 16 prisoners who were freed in a prisoner swap with Russia yesterday are back in the U.S. Germany, Slovenia, Poland, Norway and Turkey all worked with American officials on one of the largest prisoner exchanges since the Cold War. Joining us to talk about this outcome and about what's next is national security adviser Jake Sullivan. Good morning.

JAKE SULLIVAN: Thanks for having me.

FADEL: So, Jake, you were visibly moved when helping to announce that these Americans and American residents were coming home. Why is this moment so meaningful?

SULLIVAN: Well, first, it's a human victory. It's the opportunity to reunite innocent people with their families to ensure they don't spend the rest of their days in prison. But it's also a good thing for the United States of America. It shows that we can work with our allies to free our citizens and that we can also work with our allies to free freedom fighters, Russians fighting on behalf of democracy and human rights in their country. And that just reflects the kind of country the United States is, and I'm very proud to be able to work for this government and this president.

FADEL: I know these were years-long negotiations. U.S. allies - especially Germany - played a key role. Was there ever a moment - I mean, you were intimately involved. Was there ever a moment you thought this just isn't going to work? And when did you realize, no, you're getting U.S. citizens home?

SULLIVAN: Well, I often say that every negotiation, especially every complex negotiation, is a thousand days of failure and one day of success.

FADEL: Yeah.

SULLIVAN: So there were a lot of days where I thought this wasn't going to happen. But one, in particular, was the day that Alexei Navalny died. I actually saw Evan's parents here in my office at the White House the day that he died. He was...

FADEL: The Wall Street Journal reporter.

SULLIVAN: Evan's mother looked me in the eye and said, does this mean the deal can't ever come together? And I told her that I was confident that there was a way forward. And I did believe that, but I also knew that it was going to be difficult.

FADEL: Now, I watched that beautiful moment when Wall Street Journal reporter Evan Gershkovich lifted his mom off the ground when he landed and first saw her - a mother being reunited with her children. But others are still held in Russia. I'm thinking of Marc Fogel, who was convicted of marijuana possession in 2021. What can you do now about people like him?

SULLIVAN: Well, first, I actually had the chance to talk to Paul Whelan last night, and we talked about the fact that we had done previous deals to get Americans out of Russia, and we weren't able to...

FADEL: Yeah.

SULLIVAN: ...Get him out in those deals. But we got him out yesterday. We got him home. And so to Marc Fogel's family, I want to underscore that I am personally committed to making sure we get him out.

FADEL: You know, there's a lot of excitement about these releases, but there's also some concern among some that maybe this sets a standard where adversaries of the United States and other Western nations might think hostage deals are lucrative ways of getting what they want. What do you say to that?

SULLIVAN: I'd say two things. First, it's a fair question, and it's something we have to take seriously. So this is what the president weighs when he makes these decisions. Second, I don't see the evidence bearing out for that claim at this point. Putin was taking Americans hostage when there weren't deals happening, and he was taking Americans hostage when there were deals happening.

And second, the fact is that when we came into office, there were a lot more unjustly detained Americans and Americans held hostage abroad than there are today.

FADEL: Now, this is a pretty big win for President Biden politically, and it comes just a few months before a very important election. Did that have anything to do with the timing?

SULLIVAN: You cannot, even for all of the effective diplomacy and statecraft that went into this from a wide team across the government led by the president - you cannot pick the timing for something like this. It comes together after, piece by piece, you build the puzzle. And then a couple of weeks ago, the last piece fell into place when the president spoke with the Slovenian prime minister, just a couple of hours before he announced he was leaving the race. So this deal had to do with making all of the complex elements come together in one moment on one tarmac in Ankara, Turkey, and it came together when it came together.

FADEL: Now, I feel like I can't let you go without asking one question on another global issue that is kind of spiraling in this moment, the recent assassinations that have gone on this week of Hezbollah commander in Lebanon, the top Hamas political official in Iran. Yesterday, I spoke to a Lebanese caretaker, Foreign Minister Abdallah Bou Habib, who really talked about how it's out of the Lebanese government's hands at this point. Their influence over Hezbollah has decreased now that Iran is so heavily involved. And he said to me that it's only the U.S. that can bring the region back from the brink, if you take a listen to what he said.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)

ABDALLAH BOU HABIB: The U.S. has to move quickly and make Israel stop these aggressions that it's undertaking. It is the U.S. that can only produce some results, and so far, we haven't seen anything.

BOU HABIB: The U.S. has to move quickly and make Israel stop these aggressions that it's undertaking. It is the U.S. that can only produce some results, and so far, we haven't seen anything.

FADEL: What is the U.S. doing in this moment to really stop the region from spiraling out of control?

SULLIVAN: Well, first, Leila, since October 7, I've looked at the newspapers on many a day over the last 10 months and seen blaring headlines about how we were on the brink of war. And we've managed to pull the region back multiple times over the last 10 months. But the risk remains. It remains today.

FADEL: How exactly? Especially because so many are saying this prime minister isn't truly invested - Prime Minister Netanyahu of Israel - in the cease-fire process. I mean, how exactly do you get your partners and also adversaries in the region to pull back?

SULLIVAN: Well, first, just, you know, in the last week, the president has both sat with Prime Minister Netanyahu in the Oval Office and spoken with him by phone. The president has been very clear about his view that we need to move to the cease-fire and a hostage deal ASAP. I will tell you that today, tomorrow, the next day, the United States will be using a combination of diplomacy and deterrence to try to ensure that the lid does not come off the top of things in the Middle East. It remains our work right now.

FADEL: White House national security adviser Jake Sullivan, thank you so much for your time today.

SULLIVAN: Thanks for having me. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.