Lena Waithe's religion is 'The Wizard of Oz.' Here's what she learned from it.

A note from Wild Card host Rachel Martin:

Lena Waithe knows what she wants. She wants people to look outside of their own lives to try to understand other people and the choices they make. Her TV shows and films are these powerful little empathy engines.

Waithe became the first Black woman ever to win an Emmy for comedy writing on the show Master of None. She's also the creator of the comedy series Boomerang and Twenties. She wrote the film Queen & Slim and was a producer on the movie Dear White People.

But for me, Waithe's real triumph is The Chi. The show takes place where she grew up on the south side of Chicago. It's about Black people living at the margins of society with little to no room for error. It is also about family and loyalty and joy. I love this show because every character is given their full humanity. You cannot put anyone in a tidy column of good or bad or say, "This person is worthy of respect and this person's not." People are complicated, beautiful and broken, and Waithe doesn't want you to look away because if you do, you're going to miss the truth that she's putting out into the world – which is that judging people is harder when you start to understand them.

This Wild Card interview has been edited for length and clarity. Host Rachel Martin asks guests randomly-selected questions from a deck of cards. Tap play above to listen to the full podcast, or read an excerpt below.

Question 1: When did you feel like you found your people?

Lena Waithe: Michael Svoboda – who was a writer's PA on The Game when I was an assistant at Girlfriends – he and I just really vibed. And he was just like, "Yo, I got a writer's group that I do where we sit and write original pilots that we're working on to kind of help us get some stuff done." And I walked into that writer's group and I just like found all these amazing people that I'm still tight with today.

Rachel Martin: Tell me how that jibes with your hometown Chicago and your experience there, because it sounds like your people were writers. Did you not have that in some way in Chicago?

Waithe: I was a bit of an oddball in Chicago because I was obsessed with TV, obsessed with movies. Like, people go to the movies and watch TV shows – it's a pastime. And I think my family could tell it was more than that for me – I would be just enthralled by it and be thinking about it.

Like, I have like a Wizard of Oz tattoo. I have Judy Garland. I have the lion. I have the scarecrow. I have all of it, because that movie was more than a movie for me. It was almost like a Bible to life.

It's like – you always think there's something out there that's better than where you're at right now. But the truth is, when you go out there and get to the Emerald City and meet the wizard, you realize it's not really what you thought it was. And then all you long for when you're in the Emerald City is to go where?

Martin: Home.

Waithe: Exactly. And it's a lesson none of us really learn, still. You know, we still are trying to go, like, "I gotta get to the Wizard – if I could just get to the Emerald City, everything will be fine."

And then you get there, you're just like, "I'm still not fine." And so I think the big reason why Wizard of Oz is such a religion and a reminder for me is that there is no Emerald City that will feel like home.

Martin: Was that sad for you? Was there a grief attached to that?

Waithe: No, it helped me to slow down. Because the truth is, there's always something you want. And that's fine, you know, you need that thing to make you want to go. But you got to remember that it'll be nice if it happens. It'll be cool. But you don't want it to be a thing that, if you don't get it, you can't find happiness.

Question 2: What makes you irrationally defensive?

Waithe: Irrationally defensive? (laughs) Oh my gosh.

I don't like to be wrong. My least favorite thing is getting something wrong. And that can be in many ways, you know, it'd be a relationship, you know, some trivia, you know what I mean?

Martin: I love that those were in the same breath..

Waithe: I know it's like relationship, like Taboo, you know what I mean? I'm not good at not being good at things. So I can get defensive when I'm not like succeeding at something.

Martin: When's the last time you were wrong about something?

Waithe: Oh, recently. I thought a particular actress was in Game of Thrones. And she wasn't, and I was so ticked because I was like, "Are you sure that's not her?" And I looked it up too. I was like, "Let me see, let me see!"

Martin: Right, of course! Because you believed with every fiber of your being that she was in Game of Thrones.

Waithe: I really did. That's what I'm saying. Like, I was so not happy about that in that moment because I never get that stuff wrong, but it's okay.

Martin: We're going to forget you were wrong about that one. No one has to know.

Waithe: Now everybody knows.

Question 3: What's your best defense against despair?

Waithe: Ooooooh. I love this Baldwin quote. He says to Nikki Giovanni in a beautiful conversation that they're having where she thinks she's a pessimist. And he says, "No, you're a realist. You're cool, but you're not a pessimist." He's like, "Because you're alive." And I think my biggest defense against despair is the fact that I'm alive. Is that I'm here. And even though it can feel like a curse, it is the greatest gift to be Earthside at this time.

And you can't run away from despair. You can try. I love that Solange song, "Cranes in the Sky," because it's all about ways in which we try to run away. So you can try to shop it away, smoke it away, you know, like sex away. You can't.

Martin: So in the particular, when it has come for you, do you just sit there and like say an affirmation? Like, "I'm alive?" You look in the mirror, you pinch yourself like...

Waithe: No, I'm a sleeper. I'll try to sleep it away. I try to watch The Comeback, you know, which is my favorite go-to.

Martin: Really? That brings you back from the brinks of despair?

Waithe: No, it just reminds me of a character that is so flawed. But yet, I love and root for so much. Like, Valerie Cherish is a game changing character for me. When I watch that show, I can't help but look at Valerie Cherish and go, "Alright. I'm alright, I'm okay, I'll be alright," You know – that character and that show, The Comeback, ladies and gentlemen, go find it.

Martin: Despair beware!

Waithe: When you are in despair, go watch the first season of The Comeback, okay? And you will be like, "What am I experiencing? And I feel better now cause I'm laughing and also like completely have secondhand embarrassment."