NATO chief warns of heavier fighting in 'new phase' of Ukraine war

Transcript

LEILA FADEL, HOST:

Ukraine had already been bracing for more Russian attacks on the country's east. And Ukraine's foreign minister made their needs at this moment clear when meeting with NATO foreign ministers this week.

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DMYTRO KULEBA: My agenda is very simple. It has only three items on it. It's weapons, weapons and weapons.

FADEL: NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg headed up those meetings and joins me now. Good morning, Secretary General. Thank you for being on the program.

JENS STOLTENBERG: Good morning, and thank you for having me.

FADEL: So I want to start with this question. When I was in Ukraine, the plea was and continues to be a no-fly zone, something you've made clear NATO will not implement because it risks a wider war with Russia, a nuclear power. But in the meetings in Brussels, promises were made by NATO members to provide more weapons. Can you tell us more about what type of weapons will be provided? Is this the more sophisticated weaponry Ukraine has been asking for? - war planes, tanks.

STOLTENBERG: Allies are providing many different types of weapons - lighter weapons, but also more and more heavier weapon systems, old Soviet-era systems, but also advanced, modern NATO weapons. So altogether, this is making a huge effect on the battleground. Every day we can see the effects by just watching all the destroyed Russian armor, the planes and the missiles that the Ukrainians are able to shoot down.

FADEL: As we speak, there are other parts of Ukraine under Russian attack, possibly more atrocities that have or are happening like the ones we've seen in areas around Kyiv. Is NATO doing enough to stop this bloodshed now?

STOLTENBERG: The atrocities we see are absolutely horrific. And therefore, NATO allies are imposing unprecedented costs on Russia to just use the capabilities of Russia to wage this senseless war. And allies are stepping up sanctions. Allies are also stepping up in providing support to Ukraine. And we have also supported international efforts to investigate the atrocities, war crimes and to establish all the facts and then make sure that those responsible are held accountable.

FADEL: As you mentioned, the Russian military dealt with a much fiercer fight, I think, than they expected. It was not able to capture the capital Kyiv, nor decapitate the Ukrainian government, as it declared it would do. But now they're regrouping and expected to launch a new wave of attacks in the east to capture land there. What is the Russian military strategy here?

STOLTENBERG: So we expect them to launch a major offensive in the Donbas, in the south and the east of Ukraine, because they totally underestimated the strength of the Ukrainian forces. They underestimated the unity and support Ukraine was going to get from NATO-allied countries. And therefore, they have changed their operation from trying to attack many places at the same time to now concentrate more in the east. But we don't believe that President Putin has changed his overall aim, and that is to control Ukraine. And therefore, we need to provide even more support to Ukraine. I'm impressed by the courage and by the strength of not only the Ukrainian armed forces, but also the Ukrainian people and, not least, the Ukrainian leadership. And this high-spirit morale has, of course, been absolutely essential for the strength in the resistance we have seen from Ukraine.

FADEL: You've described this moment as urgent. The east is a part of the country where Russia will have easier access to resupply lines, unlike what they were dealing with in the center of the country. What is so urgent about this moment, about this planned offensive by Russia?

STOLTENBERG: It is urgent because the war most likely is moving into a new phase, where we will see much bigger formations, much heavier fighting. What we have seen so far is extremely bad. It has caused a lot of casualties, civilian suffering, destruction. But the scale and the scope of the fight we may see in Donbas will be even much heavier and even more dangerous. So therefore, we need to use this time to reinforce the Ukrainians. And that's exactly what the NATO allies are doing, partly by providing advanced weapons systems, but also by just resupplying them with basic things as fuel, ammunition and medical kits, food rations and all the other things you need to resist the brutal invasion of Russia into Ukraine.

FADEL: With all that's being done - supplying of weapons, sanctions, removing Russia from the Human Rights Council - it does sound like Ukrainians will have to deal with more loss of life and bloodshed for months. And you've even talked about a war that could last years.

STOLTENBERG: We have to remember that this is President Putin's war. This is a war by choice. They decided to invade a sovereign, independent, democratic country in Europe. So it's President Putin who is responsible for this senseless war. And he can end that war tomorrow by withdrawing its troops and sit down and engage in a - in good faith in negotiations for a political solution. But we have to be realistic and realize that that's not very likely. So therefore, we need to also be prepared for the long haul. And it's hard to predict. Wars are always unpredictable. But this can last for months and even years. And that's the reason also why we need to continue to provide support to Ukraine and be prepared for doing so for a long time.

FADEL: My last question - has Russia's war on Ukraine forever changed its relationship with NATO and the West?

STOLTENBERG: Yes, in the way that there's no way we can go back to the dialogue, the meaningful dialogue we tried to establish with Russia for many, many years. We need now to continue to talk to Russia to address issues like deconfliction to prevent incidents and accidents and, if they happen, ensure that they don't spiral out of control, and also, of course, talk to Russia on issues like arms control. But the kind of dialogue - and even more, what we strive for is to establish a better relationship with Russia. That's - that doesn't have any meaning in the current situation.

FADEL: NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg - thank you for your time.

STOLTENBERG: Thank you.

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