Netanyahu says Gaza needs a new 'civilian government,' but won't say who
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu told NPR that Israel is committed to doing three things in Gaza: destroying Hamas, freeing the Israeli hostages it's holding and giving Gaza a different future.
But the interview with Morning Edition's Steve Inskeep was notable for what the prime minister did not say: who he thinks should govern the territory with a population of 2.3 million, now devastated by six weeks of Israeli bombing.
Israel is responding to an attack by Hamas on Oct. 7 that killed about 1,200 people, according to Israeli officials. Palestinian officials say the Israeli response has killed more than 11,000. Israeli troops now directly control much of northern Gaza, and this week occupied a major hospital center.
Before October 7, Israel had followed a policy of allowing Hamas to govern Gaza so that Israel would not have to. Israel now says Hamas cannot be allowed to rule.
Netanyahu said Israel must maintain "overall military responsibility" in Gaza "for the foreseeable future."
"Once we defeat Hamas, we have to make sure that there's no new Hamas, no resurgence of terrorism, and right now the only force that is able to secure that is Israel," Netanyahu said.
He added "there has to be a civilian government there," but declined to say who he thought it would be.
It's unclear who would replace Hamas in the seat of government. Mahmoud Abbas, the leader of the Palestinian Authority — which runs the West Bank — has said he is not interested — and Israel doesn't want that either.
"I think I know who it can't be — it can't be people committed to funding terrorism and inculcating terrorism," Netanyahu added.
An Israeli military officer told NPR in early November that some combination of "local and international" forces should govern Gaza, but no candidates for this role have emerged.
For all the latest developments on this story, listen to Morning Edition now.
Netanyahu compared the situation in Gaza to the Allies' occupation of Germany and Japan after World War II, after their surrender, for administrative and rehabilitative purposes (such a move by Israel, however, would likely be unilateral).
And he called for a similar "cultural change" in Gaza to those that took place in Germany and Japan when those countries transitioned from authoritarian rule to democracies after surrendering to the Allies. He added that any government in Gaza should be committed to fighting terrorism, not funding it.
Netanyahu says Israel has taken over Al-Shifa Hospital
This week, Israeli troops closed in on Gaza City's Al-Shifa Hospital, which is the territory's main hospital. Al-Shifa had effectively stopped functioning due to ground fighting, fuel shortages and lack of medical supplies resulting from Israel's blocking the entrance of most aid to Gaza.
Many patients, doctors and other civilians have remained in the hospital even as conditions have deteriorated.
Israel said Hamas had a command center underneath Al Shifa, an assertion that the U.S. has publicly supported and Hamas has denied. But those claims have not been independently confirmed.
The Israeli military said its troops found weapons and other equipment — as well as the bodies of two hostages — in the area of the complex. A Hamas spokesperson said Friday that the hostages had health conditions and were brought to the hospital to receive life-saving medical care.
Netanyahu said troops found weapons, ammunition, bombs and a "major" command center in the hospital, which he said Israel has now taken over. He added that as troops moved in, they brought Arabic-speaking doctors and incubators with them.
"This is, I think, the most humane takeover of a hospital commandeered by terrorists in history," he said.
The Geneva Conventions protect hospitals during war, but the safeguards are not absolute. Human rights groups continue to call for a cease-fire, which Netanyahu has said cannot happen until all the hostages are released.
Human rights groups have said that even if Hamas is operating in the hospitals, Israel does not have free rein to endanger civilians there.
Netanyahu condemns civilian deaths on both sides
Netanyahu said Hamas must be replaced with a government that wants to rebuild Gaza and cares for the future of peace between Israelis and Palestinians.
When asked how he expects to make peace with people who have lost their loved ones — in some cases their entire families — to Israel's military campaign in Gaza, Netanyahu said "any civilian death, and any death of any child, is a tragedy."
He said Israel is doing "everything we can" to minimize such deaths, and accused Hamas of doing the opposite. Israel asserts that Hamas is using civilians as human shields in Gaza hospitals, a practice that is illegal under international human rights law.
"Hamas is committing a double war crime," Netanyahu said. "It's both targeting our civilians, murdering them, mutilating them, but also hiding behind civilians as human shields."
Netanyahu again invoked Germany, repeating his claim that Hamas are "the new Nazis." Like Hamas, he said, Hitler's army implanted itself in civilian neighborhoods and hospitals, but that didn't stop the Allies from fighting it.
For all the latest developments on this story, listen to Morning Edition now.
"You had to act to try to minimize civilian casualties, but unfortunately many civilians were killed," he said. "Now I think history would have taken ... a totally different course if at the time public opinion was geared against the Allies, instead of being geared against the Nazis."
Human rights groups and many in the international community have called for a cease-fire, which Netanyahu has repeatedly said won't happen until Hamas releases all of the nearly 240 hostages it took from Israel.
Americans are split over Israel's response to the October 7 attack, with a new poll showing that a majority of Democrats now say it's been too much and a majority of Republicans say it's about right.
The Biden administration and the Israeli government oppose a cease-fire, saying it would give Hamas time to regroup and prepare new attacks. But the White House has advocated for what it's calling humanitarian pauses — a limited stop to fighting in a specific area to get aid in and hostages out.
Israel has instead agreed to what it's calling a humanitarian corridor, essentially allowing civilians stuck in northern Gaza to move south for several hours a day.
Netanyahu answers Israelis who say they've lost trust
Meanwhile, a growing number of Israelis are blaming their government for security lapses that they say made the country more vulnerable to Hamas' Oct. 7 attack. Some officials, including Israel's defense minister and the military chief of staff, have personally accepted responsibility.
Many Israelis are also angry at Netanyahu because they say he has not done enough to secure the release of the hostages Hamas is holding in Gaza (so far only four have been freed — two Americans and two Israelis). Their family members of the hostages and thousands of supporters are marching from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem this week, in the hopes of increasing pressure on the government.
Netanyahu, the country's longest-serving prime minister — who has been in office for most of the past 16 years — was already deeply unpopular in many swaths of Israeli society. Last year he invited far-right ultranationalists to govern with him. And earlier this year he launched a controversial reform of Israel's judicial system that spurred massive protests.
A poll conducted earlier this month found 76% of Israelis want Netanyahu to resign. But he has said "the only thing that I intend to have resign is Hamas."
In the NPR interview, Netanyahu was played the voices of voters who said they were disappointed in his leadership after the October 7 attacks.One was Margalit Zur, the grandmother of an Israeli soldier.
"I don't trust the government," she said. "I don't trust Bibi first of all," using the prime minister's nickname.
Elyahu Merimy, a Tel Aviv taxi driver, said he had always voted for Netanyahu's Likud party. "But after what happened on the 7 of October, I don't know what to think about any one from the government, from the army, from the intelligence. I don't know what to say. How a thing like this can happen? I don't trust anyone anymore."
In response, Netanyahu said that after the "savagery" of the October 7 attack, his constituents' feelings were "understandable." But he insisted his country is "united today as never before."
The broadcast interview was edited by Reena Advani and produced by Lilly Quiroz and Shelby Hawkins.
For all the latest developments on this story, listen to Morning Edition now.
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Transcript
STEVE INSKEEP, HOST:
Benjamin Netanyahu joins us next. He is prime minister of Israel, a job that he held on October 7 when Hamas attacked and a job that he holds now as Israel responds in Gaza. Prime Minister, welcome back to the program.
PRIME MINISTER BENJAMIN NETANYAHU: Good to be with you, Steve.
INSKEEP: I want to begin by asking about Al-Shifa Hospital. The Israeli military has said they needed to seize that giant hospital complex in Gaza because a major command center for Hamas was underground. And I'll note that reporters on the ground have now been taken by the Israeli military to see some kind of staircase going down but not what is inside. Have you, in fact, found an underground command center?
NETANYAHU: Yes. We found more than that. This is not a hospital you know. It was commandeered by Hamas. There were plenty of terrorist chieftains, a lot of terrorists there. They fled as our forces approached the hospital. And happily, we didn't have to have a firefight with anyone. But we found there are a lot of weapons, a lot. We found a lot of ammunition. We found bombs. We found on level minus-two, a command and control center of Hamas with military encoded encryption. We found a terror tunnel in the compound. And that's that staircase you're talking about.
INSKEEP: Can I just ask, Prime Minister - I've heard you say on another interview about this level minus-two command center. Will you take reporters to see that or send the military to take reporters to see that?
NETANYAHU: Yeah. I think we've already published photos of it. It's there. Believe me. It's a command center. And it's not an intensive care unit. I mean, that's what it is. It's a military compound that is for - I mean, this is a commandeered hospital. It's not Mount Sinai. And it's not any one of the hospitals that you're familiar with or that I'm familiar with. It was taken over by Hamas, and now it's - we've taken over it. We've brought in - as we moved in, we brought Arabic-speaking doctors. We brought incubators for babies. So this is, I think, the most humane takeover of a hospital commandeered by terrorists in history.
INSKEEP: Well, what can...
NETANYAHU: And that's the whole point here, Steve. I think this is the main point. Israel is giving safe corridors and safe zones for civilians, and Hamas terrorists are using hospitals in order to shield themselves behind patients. It's insane.
INSKEEP: Well, we'll continue watching for the evidence coming out of that area. If we can...
NETANYAHU: And so Israel should be congratulated, and Hamas should be condemned. Yeah. Please go ahead.
INSKEEP: Our time is limited, Prime Minister.
NETANYAHU: Yeah.
INSKEEP: I want to ask about the future.
NETANYAHU: My passion is unlimited.
INSKEEP: Understood.
NETANYAHU: My passion is unlimited for justice and for truth.
INSKEEP: Understand.
NETANYAHU: And to place blame on Israel that is fighting these animals, these monsters who mutilated babies, who beheaded women, who raped and murdered women, who burned people alive - I mean, this is just sheer folly. I mean, it's sheer evil. It has to be fought. And that's why I'm speaking to you with such passion, such conviction.
INSKEEP: Understand. Understand. Prime Minister, I want to ask about the future. Colin Powell, once secretary of state of the United States, famously said to President George W. Bush of Iraq before the invasion there, you break it, you own it. What do you intend to do with Gaza once Israeli troops are fully in control on the ground there?
NETANYAHU: We have two main goals there. One is to prevent things - this threat from reemerging. From that we need to demilitarize Gaza. And the second thing we have to do is deradicalize Gaza. It's like, what do you do when you you beat the Nazi regime? Well, you make sure that Germany is - doesn't arm itself again, and you also make sure that Nazism is removed - same thing you did in the victory against Japan. You know, you won the victory, but you then also made sure that there was a cultural change in Japan. We need a cultural change in any civilian administration in Gaza. It can't be committed to funding terrorism. It has to be committed to fighting terrorism. It has to teach it.
INSKEEP: When you say any civilian administration, Prime Minister, that seems to be the question. You've said you don't want the Palestinian Authority running Gaza, which would be the other major Palestinian organization other than Hamas. You don't want them running Gaza. Who else is there?
NETANYAHU: Well, first of all, anyone who doesn't share Hamas' goals and who doesn't share Hamas' inculcation of teaching children, Palestinian children, that Israel has to be destroyed - and that's their goal in life. I mean, that's what the Palestinian Authority is doing in the West Bank. It's teaching children, Palestinian children, that Israel has to be annihilated. They pay for slay. They pay the families of terrorists for the murder of Jews. And the more Jews they murder, the more they get paid. This is not the people who can work for peace. And, you know, almost 40 days have passed, and the Palestinian leadership of the Palestinian Authority, President Abbas, has yet to condemn the savagery - the worst savagery...
INSKEEP: I want to ask, Prime Minister...
NETANYAHU: ...Perpetrated on Jews since the Holocaust.
INSKEEP: ...You talked about what...
NETANYAHU: So these are the people - are we going to put these people in Gaza and tell them, oh, we entrust our future of peace with you? That's not going to work.
INSKEEP: Well, let's ask about that because you talk about what children are taught. Israeli forces in the last few weeks have killed children, parents and siblings and other loved ones by the thousands in Gaza. And you say it was to get at Hamas - that the civilian casualties were not intentional. But they're real and by the thousands. How do you expect to make peace with people who have had their loved ones killed?
NETANYAHU: I think that any civilian death and any - the death of any child is a tragedy, and we're doing everything we can to minimize that. But Hamas is committing a double war crime. You know, it's both targeting our civilians, murdering them, mutilating them but also hiding behind civilians as human shields. And what would you do? Well, in fact, you can ask what you did.
INSKEEP: But what do you do now, is my question. How do you make peace with them now?
NETANYAHU: Well, let me show you how you did peace with people in which you had to act in many ways the way we did and actually beyond what we did. The chancellor of Germany visited Israel. He called Hamas, after he saw the atrocities, the new Nazis. What did you do with the Nazis? Hitler invaded Europe, committed the horrible crimes, the worst crimes in history. The Allies invaded Normandy, went through the cities of France and Germany. The German army implanted itself, like Hamas, in the cities, in civilian neighborhoods, in hospitals, you name it. It didn't stop you from acting. You had to act. You try to minimize civilian casualties. But many - unfortunately, many civilians were killed. Now, I think history would have taken a different course, a totally different course, if at the time, public opinion was geared against the Allies instead of being geared against the Nazis.
INSKEEP: Understood. But the question, of course, is the United States ended up keeping troops in Germany for generations. That's where you're heading here with Gaza?
NETANYAHU: Well, I'm not sure of keeping troops inside. And, in fact, it's not particularly necessary. Gaza is very small. So the overriding military responsibility has to be with Israel for the foreseeable future because once you eliminate Hamas - and we have to eliminate Hamas - we have to beat these barbarians. Otherwise, this evil will spread, and it is a great danger to everyone. But once we defeat Hamas, we have to make sure that there's no new Hamas, no resurgence of terrorism. And right now the only force that is able to secure that is Israel. So for the foreseeable future, Israeli overall military responsibility. But there also has to be a civilian government there. And that civilian government...
INSKEEP: But you haven't said who that civilian government would be, sir.
NETANYAHU: Well, I think I know who it can't be. It can't be...
INSKEEP: OK.
NETANYAHU: ...People who are committed to...
INSKEEP: I want to - if I...
NETANYAHU: ...Funding terrorism and inculcating terrorism. Let me say this, though.
INSKEEP: Very briefly, sir.
NETANYAHU: That you had this - we can give Gaza a different future. You say, how will this generation have a different future? Just the way the German people had a different future, the Japanese people had a different future - because you eliminated these toxic regimes, these tyrannies, these heartless monstrosities, and you replace them with something good. And what we need is something that is - we replace that with something that cares for the future of peace between Israel and the Palestinians, that cares to rebuild Gaza, that cares to eliminate this terrorist tyranny that subjugated the people of Gaza. I think that's the only hope for peace and the only hope for Palestinians.
INSKEEP: Prime Minister, I've been talking - we have been talking with Israelis for weeks, ever since the October 7 attack. Some of them support you and your course. I want you to hear two Israeli voters who do not. One of them is Margalit Sur (ph). She is the grandmother of an Israeli soldier. Let's listen.
MARGALIT SUR: I don't trust the government. I don't trust Bibi, first of all. For me, he thinks only of himself. For a year he has worked for hisself, for his own personal interests.
INSKEEP: And when I was in Israel, Prime Minister, I met Elyahu Merimy, who is a Tel Aviv taxi driver who says he had always voted for your party, Likud. Let's listen.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)
ELYAHU MERIMY: But after what happened on the 7 of October, I don't know what to think about anyone from the government, from the army, from the intelligence. I don't know what to say. How thing like this can happen? I don't trust anyone anymore. Nothing, really.
INSKEEP: What do you say, Prime Minister, to those Israelis whose faith in you was destroyed?
NETANYAHU: Well, I can say that Israel is united today as never before. And my government is united. I called in a significant part of the opposition that heeded my call. We formed a unity government. My war cabinet is united, and we're committed to doing three things - destroying Hamas, returning our hostages and assuring a different future in Gaza...
INSKEEP: OK.
NETANYAHU: ...Different from the one that we had before.
INSKEEP: All right - about 10 seconds.
NETANYAHU: And I think on this, the country is united. Of course the disparate voices - they're voices of disappointment. How could it not be after such a savagery? That's understandable. But right now the main thing, Steve, is that the country is really powerfully united. And, you know, I can find audios of many who support...
INSKEEP: OK. And we have heard people...
NETANYAHU: ...And who are committed people to this...
INSKEEP: ...Who said that, as well. Benjamin Netanyahu, the prime minister of Israel. Thank you very much for your time, sir. Really appreciate it.
NETANYAHU: Thank you, Steve. Appreciate it.
INSKEEP: NPR's Greg Myre is in Tel Aviv and has been listening in. Greg Myre, did you hear clarity there about Israel's long-term plans in Gaza?
GREG MYRE, BYLINE: No. Really we didn't, Steve. I mean, the key phrase there was when the prime minister said, for the foreseeable future, Israel will have overall military responsibility - and again, very vague about what they're going to do. And I think there's a very real risk that when this Israeli military operation ends, whenever that may be, Israel could effectively find itself stuck in Gaza, wanting to get out, knowing it can't rule over 2 million Palestinians there but not really have anyone to take over. As we heard, he does not want Hamas to rule again. The Palestinian Authority in the West Bank is not prepared. So it really is not clear how Israel will sort this out and come up with some sort of political solution once the fighting ends.
INSKEEP: OK. Thanks very much. That's NPR's Greg Myre talking about Benjamin Netanyahu, who just gave an interview to NPR News - one of many voices we hear. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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