Outgoing NATO chief says ‘unity’ is key as full-scale war continues in Ukraine

Transcript

LEILA FADEL, HOST:

NATO marks its 75th birthday next month during a Washington summit with President Biden and his counterparts. The meeting comes at a time of transition with outgoing Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte poised to become the new leader of the Atlantic Alliance. The man who will pass the baton is Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg, and he's with us now to talk about the future. Good morning and welcome to the program.

JENS STOLTENBERG: Thanks so much for having me.

FADEL: So as you're getting ready to leave your position, several extensions of the mandate kept you there longer than anticipated. What do you believe is the biggest challenge your successor will face?

STOLTENBERG: The most important task for any secretary general of NATO is to ensure that North America and Europe stand together and are ready to protect each other. And that's even more so now when we live in a more dangerous world with a full-scale war in Europe...

FADEL: Yeah.

STOLTENBERG: ...With a new war in the Middle East and global rivalry. So I'm absolutely certain that Mark Rutte will be an excellent person to take on that task and to secure that in the future.

FADEL: You spoke about this growing global rivalry. The big news this week was a mutual defense pact signed by Russia and North Korea. Couple that with the growing alignment of Russia, China and Iran, is the world order shifting, and is that unity more difficult?

STOLTENBERG: The unity is more important. And the world order is shifting in a way that authoritarian powers that don't believe in a rules-based international order - they are more and more aligned. They are supporting each other more and more - Russia, China, North Korea and Iran. And this is very clearly demonstrated in the war in Ukraine, where China is propping up the Russian war economy, and Iran is delivering thousands of drones, and North Korea has delivered a million rounds of artillery shells. So they are coming closer. They are supporting each other, and that makes it even more important that we stand together as NATO allies but also work with our partners in Asia Pacific - Japan, South Korea, Australia and New Zealand, and they will be at the NATO summit in Washington next month.

FADEL: You talked about the way NATO is exploring ways to connect with the Indo-Pacific, Japan to Australia. Russia's Vladimir Putin this week called that a threat to Asia and said Moscow would respond. What type of response do you expect to see from the Kremlin?

STOLTENBERG: So what we have seen is a lot of rhetoric and threatening statements from Russia. But the reality is that Russia is now more than preoccupied with the war in Ukraine. They have allocated almost all the land forces and a significant part of their air forces to try to take control over Ukraine, and they put their whole economy on a war footing, and still, they haven't been able to take control over eastern Donbas. So I think we don't see any imminent military threat from the Russian side, but of course, we need to be vigilant. We need to monitor closely what Russia does. And we need to convey a very clear message that we are together ready to defend each other. And by doing that, we are preventing the war in Ukraine from escalating beyond Ukraine.

FADEL: Now, you've warned of consequences for China over its support of Russia in the war in Ukraine. What might those consequences look like?

STOLTENBERG: Those consequences will - has to be connected to trade-economic relations. But it's not yet decided. This is an issue that has to be discussed by NATO allies. And it's not for NATO to make decisions on economic sanctions. That's for the European Union, for individual allies like the United States and others. But I have stated that China is now the main supporter of the Russian war of aggression against Ukraine, and China cannot have it both ways. They cannot continue to have normal trade relationships with European NATO allies and, at the same time, fuel the biggest and most dangerous conflict we have seen in Europe since the Second World War. So I think it's time to start to address these issues unless China changes behavior and actually stop providing so much support to Russia.

FADEL: You've also suggested that NATO flex its military muscles with three of the alliance's 32 member countries holding nuclear weapons. How does that work without creating a dynamic that could lead to nuclear warfare?

STOLTENBERG: Well, NATO's main task is to prevent war, is to preserve peace. And we do that by having credible deterrents to remove any room for misunderstanding in Moscow about our ability to defend. And we have also a nuclear deterrent, which we had for decades. And we are modernizing that now, but it's nothing new. This has been transparent and something we have been clear about for several years.

FADEL: There's something else I want to ask you about. I mean, as you've talked about the importance of unity in this moment, there's also the rise of the far right in Europe and the United States, with leaders of these more and more populous movements questioning their nation's commitment to an alliance like NATO. What does that mean for the future of this alliance if these movements rise to the top?

STOLTENBERG: Well, NATO has been or - and continues to be an alliance of 32 democracies on both sides of the Atlantic with different parties, and also sometimes questions have been asked about the relevance, the importance of NATO. But again and again, NATO has proven extremely resilient and then different parties have, over the years, decided to support NATO. And I - yeah, I'm confident that that will also be the case regardless of the outcome of different elections on both sides of the Atlantic. For instance, there were questions asked about the new Italian government led by Giorgia Meloni. They are strongly in favor of NATO. They support Ukraine. And I expect that to be also the case, for instance, in France because it is in France's security interest to have a strong NATO. It makes Europe and France safer to have a strong NATO.

FADEL: So you don't see the unity beginning to fray over Ukraine?

STOLTENBERG: No, I don't see that. If anything, what I've seen is record-high support across Europe for Ukraine, both in opinion polls but also in decisions made by different parliaments. And, for instance, in Netherlands, the biggest party was a right-wing populist party. But in the platform, they have agreed for the new government. It's clearly stated that they will support NATO and clearly stated that they will continue to provide high and strong support to Ukraine. So, again, in democracies, you can never have 100% guarantees, but so far, we haven't seen any changes or any allies stepping down. There is a strong support for Ukraine.

FADEL: As you get ready for this transition to a new secretary general of NATO, what advice do you have for your successor?

STOLTENBERG: First of all, I'm a bit careful giving advice because Mark Rutte is a good friend, a good colleague and I know that he has a lot of experience that makes him absolutely capable of making his own decisions. But again, the most important thing is to keep North America and Europe together because we don't know what the next crisis or war will be, but we do know that if we stand together, we will be safe and be able to preserve any armed attack on any NATO ally.

FADEL: That's NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg. Thank you for your time.

STOLTENBERG: Thanks so much for having me. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.